Official Luthiers Forum!

We have had many discussions about building for friends, at a discount, and here is the reason why I will never do it again...

I recently built a guitar for a friend and charged him less than half my normal fee. It still gave me some profit but if I were to calculate my hourly wage it was probably around $2 an hour if that. Anyway I delivered the guitar to him about 3 months ago, he was estatic, loved it so much he sold all his other acoustics...o.k. great right?...wrong...he then had a friend play it, a professional (I won't name names), who suggested I lower the action slightly. He returned the guitar to me and I made the adjustment. When my friend came to p/u the guitar He again loved it...So off to lunch we go, and as we leave I notce he puts the guitar(in case) into the trunk of his car, I offer/suggest that he leave it at my place and after lunch, when dropping me off, take it then...NO wants it now...Now mind you it still gets pretty hot in Florida this time of year, and especially in a closed trunk of a car. Also know, this instrument was F.P.'d and has as a result very little protection against the elements. It was also built just short of failure and was quite delicate (at the customers request...so he knew) Anyway, all seems well, until that night...that night I get a call...He was leaning the guitar, backwards, out in his garage, against an amp, and it fell...the headstock hit the cement floor just right and completely snapped it off. Wow...I felt like one of my kids had been shot!...he was laughing...saying "well I am sure you can fix it or put a new neck on it..."

So why do I mention the car trunk, and the guys' indifference about the neck break?...Because I honestly believe if I had charged him the full price ( about $3000 more than the $2200 he paid) He would have taken better care of the instrument. I never would ever think to lean an acoustic against an amp...not ever. I also think He too would have felt badly about the neck Snapping if he knew he just lost 5k.  Perhaps he does, and this is his way of dealing with it all, But I still can't help think that he just didn't treat the instrument with enough care/respect/value and both his actions that day sort of tell me so. I know $2200 is still alot to most of us, but this guy is pretty well off...so it's more like pocket change to him AND he didn't really loose anything because "Hey we are Friends...I can fix it right?"

So my question is...What would you do?

I will never build another guitar for a friend for less than full price. I would still build one and donate it to Charity or sell it for less to a Church or something but never to a "friend".

Maybe I need some new friends

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Well first off if this was one of my guitars this would not a warranty issue. failing to secure the guitar in a stand puts this in the category of unforeseen accidental damage and to a crafstmanship or structural failure. So if in your shoes I would fix it or replace the neck at repair rate.

From what you wrote I got the impression your friend kind of understood this to be the case anyway. It just is one of those things happen scenarios

just smile along with him ad fix it at a repair rate.

Dave-
I'm not a pro, so I won't comment on the issue of prices, customer relations, etc.
However, if I had done what your friend did, I would be so embarassed that I might not even have the nerve to call you about it. I'd probably sneak off to the best repair shop in the country to get the repair done, or at least to get a price on the repair, before I even got back to you with a huge apology, and an open checkbook.
It's not for me to say at a distance, but this friendship sounds a bit 'lopsided'.

Regards
John

Well first off if this was one of my guitars this would not a warranty issue. failing to secure the guitar in a stand puts this in the category of unforeseen accidental damage and NOT a crafstmanship or structural failure. So if in your shoes I would fix it or replace the neck at repair rate.

From what you wrote I got the impression your friend kind of understood this to be the case anyway. It just is one of those things happen scenarios

just smile along with him ad fix it at a repair rate.

Simple, I'd explain it to him: "Hey, I do this for a living, except that in your case, I made an exception and broke even. And I was glad to do it because we're pals...but repairs and setups that I have to make in the future take a lot of bench time, and that goes beyond what I originally prepared to do - especially when it comes to an instrument not being taken care of properly. Keeping a high quality instrument requires knowledge and due diligence. And it's your responsibility, not mine. I'll be your "go to" guy for repairs and service, but I'm going to charge you full price for it, starting with this headstock repair. I've lost as much money on that particular guitar as I plan to lose."

If he doesn't understand that, or it hurts his feelings, too bad.

Bill

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

I agree with you John.  I could never ask for a repair under those circumstances.  It sounds to me like there is a pretty big ego involved here, not to mention a fair dose of irresponsibility.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Would your friend give you a week or two of his labour & expertise for free?

While it's definitely a disappointment, doesn't sound like it's really a problem unless he complains about you charging a normal repair rate for the repair.

If he thinks you ought to do it free because you're buddies, tell him you'll do it if he'll do chores around your house while you're in the shop fixing his mistake. :) Most folks don't understand the value of your time until you try to take some of theirs.

_________________
______________________________
Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

This is a "friend"?   Sounds like a world class jerk to me. None of my friends or clients would expect me to charge less than my normal shop rate to fix an instrument they broke. The real question is, "Why do you need abusive friends taking advantage of you?" Psychologically, this may be more of a you problem than a him problem...

First off, your friend seems like he is a bit ungrateful for your kindness, either that or he hasnt the proper respect for the fine handmade instrument, or your time and effort -
either way I think it boils down to your particular friend..

If someone whom I really admired thier work.. such as Howard or Lance.. built me a guitar for cost or near cost,,, I would have it handcuffed to my wrist 24/7, and sleep with it!!!!
So although it sounds like youve made up your mind, and your entitled to your feelings... especially after what youve gone through.. its really sucks for the next person who you might breifly consider giving a discount to, but ultimately decline, because they might be like me and treasure the instrument the way every luthier hopes that the person recieving thier baby... would..
Of course at this rate we'll, they'll, & you'll never find out..

Im not trying to lecture you,, Im just talking here..
But just taking a shot in the dark,
mabye the decision to do this.. is partially based on you being angry at yourself for choosing such a poor caretaker of your lovingly made instrument>?
Because IMO no mater how good a friend someone is in other ways - it wont necessarily make them a good steward of a musical instrument... sad but true
Cheers
Charlie
P.S. I think you have a right to be angry and express such to this person.. perhaps you can instill in them an appreciation for what youve done for them!

Rick,
you beat me to the punch... I was typing as you posted,,, I dont wanna look like Im echoing already posted sentiments..
Cheers
Charlie

You didn't say that he wanted you to fix it for free. If that is what he is expecting then don't do it. That would be taking unfair advantage of your friendship and he should know better.

Your point about respecting the instrument and treating it properly, is an interesting one. Somehow I don't think he would have treated it any differently if you had charged him full price. Some people have a cavalier attitude about the things that they own. Some are just klutzes.

I think that it is important that you not take his disrespect for the guitar that you built and transfer that into disrespect for you. I doubt that he made that connection.

I am glad that I am not the only one that read the post as if the client was only asking for it to be repaired, not necessarily on warranty of for free.

The way the paragraph was written, to me sounded as if the client was saying Dave I screwed up and busted the guitar but I know Dave's skill is awesome. So Dave here is some repair work for you.

I never read where he said anything like you need to fix this because this showed poor workmanship and that it should be covered under warranty.

Now this does not take away the fact that Dave may feel that the client is cavalier with his care and treatment of the guitar. This may be a true fact but after Dave handed off a guitar to a client Dave can no longer own this work outside of standing up to a craftsmanship warranty. Any hurt Dave may feel is for Dave to deal with, and Dave should do that by charging a fair but prime rate on the repair. JMO

Daniel pretty much hit the nail on the head.
                  James

_________________
James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

Your friend seemed to not respect the guitar very much at all Dave.Putting it in the trunk and leaning it on an amp!!Geeeesh! But it does sound like he knows you have the skills to repair it at a fair price and isn't expecting a free warranty job.

_________________
Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755

If you have any backlog of unfilled orders, repairing the guitar will cost you time and money and also delay delivery to others whom are waiting. Unfair to you and them; I would tell him to find a good repair shop and good luck. Tough love and a lesson.

Dean

_________________
Dean

Having lots of money does strange things to people.

Good luck!

_________________
Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

    It is very difficult for us to percieve someones demeanor  secondhand (and online at that)   Some people express nervous laughter, he may well have been embarrased . I would just basicly  be upfront and lay it on the line with him...the damage is totaly his responsibility , and you will be charging him for the repair ... and while your at it explain to him  How careless you feel he is being with your  " gift"  and that he will most likly be looking at another costly repair if he continues to leave the guitar in the trunk! Jody

Dave, do you have a written warranty that goes out with your instruments? 



Something along the lines of "...guaranteed against defects in
materials or workmanship..." and "...void in case of neglect or
abuse..."?

Thank You everyone for your responses...Yes I have a written warrantee...BUT this is a friend not just a customer...I think it comes down to the fact, I guess, that as a builder, I know what goes/went into building that instrument...this person will never appreciate the guitar the way I do because he has never done anything that is comparable in his life. He is a friend though...I suppose...I know he expects me to fix or replace and of course I wouldn't charge him more than my cost..."we're friends". I think the best advice that I can take from you guys is to detach myself from the incident, tell the guy it's going to cost "x" amount to fix and look at it like it is simply a repair job that I am getting paid for...I haven't seen it yet so I am assuming that it can be repaired...if not I have an even bigger problem because as you all know, building a whole new neck is a lot of work.

I like Rick Turner's advice... maybe there's something wrong with me...maybe...maybe SKG doesn't stand for Siesta Key Guitars...maybe it stands for Serial Killer Guitars...Oh Know...AHHHHHHH...who's that in the bushes?...

Thanks Rick! I needed that...

Anyway, i think it's no different than when you give someone a gift, any gift and they abuse/destroy it. Then you feel that it wasn't appreciated, which may not be the case at all, but then again He may just be a drunken, no good, son of a bum after all...

NEVER AGAIN...

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Dave,
Charge him full price for the repair. You are worthy of your pay. There is no way that this should cost you time and money by doing the repair for a bargain.
You already gave the gift. Consider that part done.

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Dave

I agree with the above comments. If you are uncomfortable telling him there is a fee for repairing the guitar then tell him you found a luthier that can do a fine job repairing the guitar and give him the referral. When he realizes the cost of the repair you will be in better position to negotiate  to do the repair yourself.

John

I thought of sending him to another Luthier but honestly that would hurt his feelings. I know that sounds silly but I don't want to do that either. I will fix it for a reasonable fee...if possible. I certainly am going to express the fact that he should take care of the guitar from here on out...don't know how long I am going to be around to clean up after him. He really did like the guitar...I just can't understand the lack of care...I even gave him an Ameritage case for it. Why wouldn't you use the case if you didn't have a stand...and I know this guy...he probably has 25 top notch stands all over his "estate".

Just bothers me, I guess it shouldn't...got to let the children go some day...right?

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

My policy on Friends is that they should be willing to pay you double the going rate because they believe in you and want to support you as a friend

Hit him over the head with the rest of the guitar that way the broken headstock won't look so bad

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

[QUOTE=Rod True]My policy on Friends is that they should be willing to pay you double the going rate because they believe in you and want to support you as a friend

Hit him over the head with the rest of the guitar that way the broken headstock won't look so bad [/QUOTE]

Rod, That's FUNNY! I think I would feel a lot better if I did...then I could make him another one and only charge half price... since I contributed to the destruction of this one!

Thanks for the Laugh...

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"