Official Luthiers Forum!

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] My question remains are all forum members at all levels to be treated equally here?[/quote]

"equally" is one of those words that are plagued by ambiguity of definition. But, yes, I think we treat everyone equally.

Or... more specifically, nobody here has a blessed or cursed status. Both Lance and I try to look at situations with a "reasonableness" and "common sense" approach.


[QUOTE=Hesh1956]
I believe, and again this is not personal, that you very skillfully sidestepped my question.

If in the context of challenging another's ideas anyone violates the code of conduct will they be dealt with in a substantially similar manner with no regard for who they may or may not be in the guitar building world?[/quote]

I didn't intentionally side step the question. There was just a lot to respond to .. so I replied to what I interpreted as the "spirit" of your comments.

You know me... you know that I am not a guy who rides by the "letter" of the rules, but more of the spirit of the rules. Both approaches are plagued with problems. Regardless of which way you choose to implement the rules of the community exactly where is that "point" when the line gets crossed? Who gets to decide? Is that decision good enough (these threads seem to say -- 'no' we don't universally agree with decisions). Our solution for settling these things is sometimes messy, but I think it is better than an authoritative alternative.

But I will say that we try to be fair. I honestly don't want to get in the middle of disagreements and squabbles... and neither does Lance. Sometimes we let them go on for a while to see if they will work themselves out... sometimes they do.. sometimes not. We really try not to close threads.. and it is only after things look like they can't recover to we end a thread.

Personally, I just don't see why a bunch of grown adults cannot disagree in a civilized way.

You know me... I don't (often) get emotional about any of this. I can disagree with you --- and go out for beers with you. I just try to separate our difference of opinion as simply that ... a difference of opinion.

Again... I recognize that others may get more fired up... but that was my original point. We should just all take a step back (try to) check our emotions, and let our hide get a little tougher.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

This forum, not being a democracy, but a benevolent dictatorship requires that the moderators be above the fray and exhibit total professionalism and maturity and the backbone to treat ALL members equally. Anything less will degrade the quality of discussions and the integrity of the forum.

Dean

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Dean

NOBODY IS PERFECT












By the way I am nobody.

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

Sorry could not resist.

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

Hesh I have a ton of respect for you and the way you have presented yourself.

I think there is a balance to be struck

In the end no matter what Lance and Brock do it is more up to us than them because the only behavior anyone can control is there own.

My autistic son has made some amazing progress, if he can
you would think we can.


        Kirby

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

I think it is also important to remember that while we all communicate in English, the participants here are from literally all over the world. I just sent some wood to Kim from the swap meet to more or less the polar opposite of New England, Western Australia. Just because we all type out the same words does not mean we are all coming from the same place culturally and that can be difficult to recognize without a human in front of you. It is an amazing thing to be able to communicate in this fashion and even when it becomes a routine, it should not be taken for granted.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Lance & Brock (and mods by association)



This is your house.  People are not required to participate here,
they are invited to participate according to the rules.  As hosts,
you are entirely within your rights to exercise whatever modifications
to posts and threads and member privileges that you deem
proper....don't apologize for it!  Those who are cool with it will
stay, those who aren't can walk.



There will always be those who aren't cool with it and would rather pee
in the pickle jar than leave.  The best mods are those who are
transparent and invisible when it comes to censoring offending threads.



And BTW, if you're one of those folks who are all bent over your lack
of an edit button...you should have participated as a seller in the
Most Excellent Swap Meet and enjoyed limited-time status as an
edit-enabled "sponsor".  That's where that's coming from.

I think it is great that Lance and Brock are so open to feedback, but bottom line they have the final call, and I respect that authority and vision of what this forum is all about.

I read these threads and often wonder if the people who are evaluating the choices Lance and Brock make would be so critical of a person posting their work. It seems to me most would offer suggestions, but I doubt they would challenge choices made so boldly.

It may be that some people feel as though they need to be more forceful, because they feel they are protecting someone else from being harmed. I may feel the need to point out something to Brock or Lance if I think they did not see it, but I have faith in their ability to react to people who violate forum rules. I suspect they are more worried about my daughter reading profanity or viewing obscene images while looking at the forum with me. Than an adult being offended, or ego taking a jab. I think their priorities are pretty well placed.

Rich

[QUOTE=erikbojerik]
[/QUOTE]

That was funny!!!

It would do my heart good if this thread just quietly slipped off the page and I wouldn't have to keep looking back at it to see if its caught fire again.

Robbie, I agree that popcorn smily is the best! I gotta grab it and dump it in the new OLF smily packet!

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Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Although I doubt anyone noticed, I haven't posted much of anything for a couple of months now, and it is just for the reasons Hesh stated. The rules are not followed by all and the "experienced" luthiers who break the rules ARE allowed to get away with much more than the rest of us. Just check over the threads for the past 4 or 5 months and it is very obvious. I'm not whining here, it's not "really" my forum. I have decided to exercise my option of not participating very often, though. I do appreciate the first couple of years, though. This was a swell place to hang out. It's still better than the other forums, I think, but it certainly isn't what it was.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Once long ago in a land far away there was a place called Camelot

"This place is only what we choose to make it. It can be no more and will be no less."
[Lee Hedges; Head Football Coach Captain Shreve High School 1973](I substituted place for team to make it reinvent)

"Intelligent Debate is only venomous if seasoned with self-piety"
[Leata Wilks; Debate Coach Captain Shreve high School 1972]

[QUOTE=old man] Although I doubt anyone noticed, I haven't posted much of anything for a couple of months now, and it is just for the reasons Hesh stated. The rules are not followed by all and the "experienced" luthiers who break the rules ARE allowed to get away with much more than the rest of us. Just check over the threads for the past 4 or 5 months and it is very obvious. I'm not whining here, it's not "really" my forum. I have decided to exercise my option of not participating very often, though. I do appreciate the first couple of years, though. This was a swell place to hang out. It's still better than the other forums, I think, but it certainly isn't what it was.

Ron[/QUOTE]

So say you...

but I will tell you what... show me another forum where you could post comments like these critisizing the very hosts that provide you the platform to voice opinions like these...

I think the very fact that we allow things like this disproves your point.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] [QUOTE=old man] Although I doubt anyone noticed, I haven't posted much of anything for a couple of months now, and it is just for the reasons Hesh stated. The rules are not followed by all and the "experienced" luthiers who break the rules ARE allowed to get away with much more than the rest of us. Just check over the threads for the past 4 or 5 months and it is very obvious. I'm not whining here, it's not "really" my forum. I have decided to exercise my option of not participating very often, though. I do appreciate the first couple of years, though. This was a swell place to hang out. It's still better than the other forums, I think, but it certainly isn't what it was.

Ron[/QUOTE]

So say you...

but I will tell you what... show me another forum where you could post comments like these critisizing the very hosts that provide you the platform to voice opinions like these...

I think the very fact that we allow things like this disproves your point.

[/QUOTE]



Then you obviously missed my point.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

[QUOTE=old man]

Then you obviously missed my point.

Ron[/QUOTE]

Not at all...

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I asked my wife to read a couple of the posts that have been going on ,and her comment was "what a bunch of girls,actually worse." No offense meant to anyone,especially the ladies on the forum ,as these were her words not mine.But it`s interesting to hear an outsiders view.I really have learned a ton from everyone here and enjoy being a member.I only hope folks can keep with the incredible discussions on guitar building and be big enough to not intentionally be ornery and also not let every little thing get to them.I mean to me it seems as Brock was trying to convey, you can disagree without starting a darn war.This forum is just to special.We all have the common love for building guitars,and that should be the most important thing going on here.
                          James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

Let's get back to what we come here for...BUILDING great sounding and looking guitars!

As a lower than newbie,  (not that anyone else made me one) I have really enjoyed this forum for the learning and the different personalities that come across.  I have laughed and cried and applauded to many of the posts.  Of course, not all at the same time!

Thank you, Lance and Brock, for what and how you do what you do.  I think that I detect that both of you have a sufficiently thick skins to run this show.  There is a passage in a Book that says: For all have sinned.  We are all flawed to some extent and sometimes those flaws clash.  I may have handled it differently than you, BUT, I am not the moderator.  In life there is an ebb and flow in relationships.

I think I remember someones tagline form their signature here that says: Time wounds all heels.  Let's rest for a while and resume building guitars!

I wonder if we all got stressed out during the swap meet?

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Steve Walden
Aspiring Builder,
Bartlesville, OK

Best emoticon yet!!!!!

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

I for one feel that the level of discourse here has generally gone up in quality since I first looked in a year ago or so. Yes, there have been some disputes that have gotten personal, but behind that has been an almost universal desire that we all further the state of the art.

I think that one of the tensions has been between those doing lutherie as a hobby where time is immaterial, "zoot" is more important than function, and hints of commercialism are looked down upon and the pros here who need to do good work quickly, who need to make a decent living at this, and who probably resent competing with luthiers who don't mind working for five bucks an hour. I think a lot of this tension has been hashed out and that there is respect both ways now that there might not have been in the past.

There is still some tension between those who post, but withold the secret handshake and those who post everything they know. While I understand and respect the concept of trade secrets, most of those who hold those secrets in the lutherie world have learned liberally from those who are totally free with their knowledge. They become somewhat like black holes...knowledge goes in, but not out. I personally find the idea that a luthier might market their skills based on secrets to which they and only they are privy to be somewhat offensive. It's doubly offensive when probing questions are asked and the reply is a blow off.   

I doubt that Ervin would earn a dime less if he were to publish his methods or post them here or elsewhere. There is nothing like learning in person from someone like him who is a master builder. But he has the right to do as he pleases. But when his students get into pissing matches, I think those of us who haven't attended his classes just wonder where the smoke and mirror machine is located. I would personally rather not even hear about or see pictures of pre and post Ervin experiences unless some real information is going to come across. Otherwise it's either just advertising, self aggrandizement, or a waste of time for those like myself who are here to learn something.

My favorite rules in the code of conduct would be "Don't bother posting unless you really have something to contribute that's either really funny or helps to advance the state of the art." Second would be, "At least do some of your own homework." Third would be, "Pose questions intelligently, but don't be afraid to pose them."

There is still some tension between those who post, but withold the secret handshake and those who post everything they know. While I understand and respect the concept of trade secrets, most of those who hold those secrets in the lutherie world have learned liberally from those who are totally free with their knowledge. They become somewhat like black holes...knowledge goes in, but not out.

Is that directed at Ervin or his students?  If students then you should realize that he has requested their discretion and I think it would be pretty bad form not to honor the request, even if one disagrees with it, which I do.

If directed at Ervin, I think it's flat out wrong.  To call Ervin a black hole is laughable.  Take a look at his web site and the list of articles he's published, forums he's been on, etc.  Hard to ask for more of a contribution than that.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

The Ervin issue is merely a catalyst for a lot of thought and some verbiage here.   

If he's requested discretion, then is it not indiscreet to publish photos of a "post-Ervin" voiced top? And what's the discretion involved other than buying into a secret handshake sub-society of luthier apprentices?
Why even post a subject like Pre-Ervin and Post-Ervin unless there's going to be some real information passed along? I had hoped to learn something, and all I got was kind of like, "Neener, neener, neener, we're not going to say..." It's so high school clique.

What I'm saying is this, "Say it; reveal it; or just don't talk about it at all."   It is disingenuous to publish photos of something on such a public sharing forum as this and then basically say you've been asked not to talk about it. "If I tell you, I'll have to kill you.'   I have a stronger word in mind than disingenuous, but I'm trying to stay within the lines here.

I will never post pictures here, on-line elsewhere,or in magazines without being willing to tell all I know about what I'm doing, and if that involves crediting others, then I'll do that as well. I have tens of thousands of words in print and on-line to back up what I'm saying on this subject.

Are we here to share or gloat?

Kent, it may be that Rick has other "black holes" in mind and that his comments about Ervin Somogyi were meant to be seperate.

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

I probably shouldn't post this, but short of someone taking Ervin's class and printing a book called " Eveything Ervin Said In His Course",It seems a great loss that he has asked others not to discuss ideas, discoveries, concepts and thwarted the magic that comes from freeform discussion of ideas.

The idea that he would lose something is odd to me, I'll just bet it's quite the opposite; he would gain far more students and respect.

Keeping art and ideas safe for the world is stupid, oppressive, unneeded.

I for one am extremely grateful that finally, someone had the courage to actually show a braced top that may have been inspired by Ervin's class.

Will Groff