Official Luthiers Forum!

I think I have a greater faith in people, that most will do or say the right thing.
This is something that I fight when trying to moderate this forum.
Brock and I have tried very hard to tread lightly and not be the heavy hand that
other forums have. To be moderate moderators.

This has worked well, and I still believe that it can continue to work.
Deleting posts with out warning or explanation opens up an entirely different can of worms.
It can give the perception of "taking sides" or "censoring".
I would be over ran with the " but you deleted my post, why not his?"
Im not sure I want to go there.
If I had the time to read every single post, this kind of moderation would not be as diffucult. But I dont.

Must think on this some more.

Right now im headed home to take the rug rats trick'r treating.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Lance all I can say is THANKS.

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

Not wanting to belabor this any more, many of you assume too much. My
second posting was not the piling on that it appears, but rather was
composed as a response to Steve Saville. Unfortunate as it is, Andy was
composing a response at the same time. I hit send, and headed out. By the
time I got back this afternoon the damage was done. As there was no
longer a public means by which to clarify that I wasn't trying to pile on since
the discussion was closed, I sent a private message to Andy in this regard.
Beyond this, any further discussion is only going to contribute to additional
rancor and so to that end I'll leave it at this.

First, Shane... excellent post!!!

I may have a little different view of this morning's squabble.

I'm really proud of how everyone handled themselves (well, almost everyone).

Andy showed great restraint...
Steve stuck up for his friend with a thoughtful response...
Lance put the thread out of it's misery in a timely fashion ...
and... before you know it, Kent started another thread, back on track with a discussion on soundboard bracing!

These little fights are going to happen no matter what... It's how we all handle it when it does, that makes this such a great forum!!

long

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"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.” -Heraclitus of Ephesus

I am in 100% agreement with Lance ... there are far too many petty pi**ing matches going on. Most have nothing to do with guitars. Those have no place here and need to go away.

But.. with respect to lutherie... I have a couple of comments.

These are not going to be popular, and I will very likely be drug before the mob and beat repeatedly, but I think they should be said.

"Get along" does not mean "don't disagree". I am all for healthy, vigorous, and perhaps even heated debate. Challenging *** IDEAS *** is one of the keys (IMO) to progress. Being asked to defend your position or opinion is NOT out of line (provided it was asked in a serious way).

I have seen several threads where someone challenged an idea and great offense was taken by the author....

I honestly see no problem with this. I think that this helps us evaluate our ideas and defend them and that is useful and productive. Even if we simply reinforce our own beliefs self examination is valuable.

Now... I know that there are a couple members who can be a little.... uh.... "pointed" in their comments. I also know that rubs some people the wrong way. But if you discount your emotion when you read some of their thoughts you will see that they really aren't attacking the author so much as they are saying "well... that that is completely wrong... why do you think that?" Provocative for sure... but not disrespectful in an environment where we all come to participate and learn.

I think if all we do is smile politely when our friends are off the mark we do them and our community a disservice. Presumably we are all here to gain knowledge and make some friends. I don't think debate and honesty are a barrier to this process.

I know that David's comments kicked up the dust today, but if you read that thread David and Andy quickly settled the matter. It was the rest of the group who wanted to take up torches and pitchforks.

I think these are bad trends and I wish we could all grow a little thicker hide.

Again, I am all for getting along, and ABSOLUTELY think that discourse should be about ideas and not authors... but I think a faux kissy kissy politeness does not benefit anyone.

As I said.. I realize these comments are not going to be popular, but they are my opinions and I know that I am not alone ...

Since nobody else brought it up... I thought it needed to be said.

Brock Poling39386.6725578704

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Like sands through the hourglass,
so are the days of our lives....................

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

"Get along" does not mean "don't disagree". I am all for healthy, vigorous, and perhaps even heated debate. Challenging *** IDEAS *** is one of the keys (IMO) to progress. Being asked to defend your position or opinion is NOT out of line (provided it was asked in a serious way).

Yahoo to that!!!

I think if all we do is smile politely when our friends are off the mark we do them and our community a disservice. Presumably we are all here to gain knowledge and make some friends. I don't think debate and honesty are a barrier to this process.

And that!!!

Now... I know that there are a couple members who can be a little.... uh.... "pointed" in their comments.

As for that, well there's the rub. A small number of folks tend to be at the center of a large number of disputes.  And those folks are CLEARLY smart enough to know exactly what they are doing, and smart enough to be able to communicate in less offensive ways if they wanted to.  All I would ask is why they don't?

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

[QUOTE=Kent Chasson] All I would ask is why they don't?

[/QUOTE]

And, I think that is a fair question, worth asking.   

Personally, I can handle it when I find myself on the point of the stick... (though admittedly I don't enjoy it) but for what they have to offer in return I feel that on balance it is a positive process.   But again, I realize my opinions are not widely shared.

Brock Poling39386.6938657407

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Brock Poling]Edited by Brock Poling on October 31 2007 at 1:39pm[/QUOTE]
Personally I this this is an outrage!

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Course if I could edit my last post, I'd put on one of these as well as fix my typo.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]Are you saying that if one has more to offer their value here is greater?[/quote]

Not at all. What I am saying is that we should put a stop to the petty nonsense fighting, but when it comes to lutherie we need to try to isolate the emotion that generally comes with being challenged and try to focus on the question. I have seen a number of threads where people get very upset but if you look at the thread from a neutral postion the questions are valid. I see nothing wrong with this kind of debate. Again, I just don't think that "get along" and "disagree" are mutually exclusive.

Take now for instance.. we are not agreeing, but we are both stating our points. I am not mad at you (and I hope you are not mad at me). We just don't share the same opinion and we are discussing it.


[QUOTE=Hesh1956]BTW it's a little insulting to see that your posts have been edited when the promise to us to have this capability has been very long in coming.....[/QUOTE]

Maybe so... I don't know what to tell you. I am an admin. (BTW, I fixed a duplicate word and a weird sentence) Everyone else had this ability too until a couple folks tried to be cute and ruined it for everyone.

Edit will be back in with the new platform. The coders are working through a punch list about 3 pages long. As soon as we launch on the new board this will be back.

...but I have explained all this before.

The only thing I can say is I am sorry you are offended.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] Everyone else had this ability too until a couple folks tried to be cute and ruined it for everyone.



Edit will be back in with the new platform. The coders are working through a punch list about 3 pages long. As soon as we launch on the new board this will be back.



[/QUOTE]

aha!  this is the double edged sword of the edit button!  "real" users want it to correct typos and such, or add in thoughts that make the post look more logical...

trolls want the edit button to sling mud at others, then delete the offenses before a Mod catches it...then it all becomes a game of "he said, she said" and feelings get hurt (been there, done that, been the victim too many times to count)

I suggest the use of a time limit for edits...this allows spell corrections and such, and helps prevent abuse (it certainly does not stop it unless the timer is set real, real short)

in the big picture my experience has shown me that stopping edits is the best route to take sometimes....if somebody starts throwing insults around, then the better be able to have it out in the open forever!
 

This all kind of helps you understand why Deb has so many rules over at that other forum. It only takes a few bad apples to really hose things up for many good people.

Speaking of Deb, Brock/Lance did you ever consider using volunteer moderators to help you out with monitoring all this? I realize this forum has grown immensly since it was started and it's now a much bigger chore for the moderators. I'm not recommending a squad of storm toopers or anything like that, just someone to help you guys watch over things and try to help keep this sort of thing from wasting bandwidth.

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

And yet another chapter in "The Never Ending Story"

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1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] Again, I just don't think that "get along" and "disagree" are mutually exclusive.
[/QUOTE]

Brock,

I don't think that anyone is saying anything different than this. We would all tend to agree with this statement. This is not the case with the thread in question. I mean, if it was phrased right it could have been spun to be a disagreement on a technical issue but it wasn't. It was just a blatant and rude outburst. There are many ways to skin this cat (guitar) and offering alternatives gives one the option to choose. If posters are attacked in a mean spirited manner then those people will think twice before posting again. The attacker is happy because he really didn't want to hear what was being said anyway but those of us that would like the opportunity to consider the posters thoughts are now robbed of that privilege.

Sorry, I don't want to belabor this I just really believe we should all live by the "be kind to others" rule. Man, could I be rude about some re-sawing questions!!! It serves no positive purpose though! Lets take the same tact with other aspects of the forum.

Off to watch the kids fill the trick or treat bags!

Shane

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Canada

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] My question remains are all forum members at all levels to be treated equally here?[/quote]

"equally" is one of those words that are plagued by ambiguity of definition. But, yes, I think we treat everyone equally.

Or... more specifically, nobody here has a blessed or cursed status. Both Lance and I try to look at situations with a "reasonableness" and "common sense" approach.


[QUOTE=Hesh1956]
I believe, and again this is not personal, that you very skillfully sidestepped my question.

If in the context of challenging another's ideas anyone violates the code of conduct will they be dealt with in a substantially similar manner with no regard for who they may or may not be in the guitar building world?[/quote]

I didn't intentionally side step the question. There was just a lot to respond to .. so I replied to what I interpreted as the "spirit" of your comments.

You know me... you know that I am not a guy who rides by the "letter" of the rules, but more of the spirit of the rules. Both approaches are plagued with problems. Regardless of which way you choose to implement the rules of the community exactly where is that "point" when the line gets crossed? Who gets to decide? Is that decision good enough (these threads seem to say -- 'no' we don't universally agree with decisions). Our solution for settling these things is sometimes messy, but I think it is better than an authoritative alternative.

But I will say that we try to be fair. I honestly don't want to get in the middle of disagreements and squabbles... and neither does Lance. Sometimes we let them go on for a while to see if they will work themselves out... sometimes they do.. sometimes not. We really try not to close threads.. and it is only after things look like they can't recover to we end a thread.

Personally, I just don't see why a bunch of grown adults cannot disagree in a civilized way.

You know me... I don't (often) get emotional about any of this. I can disagree with you --- and go out for beers with you. I just try to separate our difference of opinion as simply that ... a difference of opinion.

Again... I recognize that others may get more fired up... but that was my original point. We should just all take a step back (try to) check our emotions, and let our hide get a little tougher.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

This forum, not being a democracy, but a benevolent dictatorship requires that the moderators be above the fray and exhibit total professionalism and maturity and the backbone to treat ALL members equally. Anything less will degrade the quality of discussions and the integrity of the forum.

Dean

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Dean

NOBODY IS PERFECT












By the way I am nobody.

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

Sorry could not resist.

_________________
"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...