Official Luthiers Forum!

Lance (and Brock),

I am typically reluctant to get involved with controversial posts, but I think I need to say a couple of things. In the recent thread that Andy started he was kind enough to post pictures of his recently braced works. Andy has ALWAYS been very active on this board both with sharing his works and seeking advice that started with a question that typically initiated a discussion that many of us benefited from. That is the process and foundation of this forum. Andy is the first person to post his works following Somogyi's course. The nit picking attitude that Berkowitz displayed was very disrespectful and does not honour at all the Code of Conduct that you have built this community upon. There is no doubt that David has great building chops but that only gives him, well, great building chops. At the end of the day if he does not want to offer value to the forum then silence is his best option. It seems at times that some of the experienced builders arrive, throw all of the toys around the room, yell at a couple of others and storm off. Why bother!! I don't get how that helps this community or themselves for that matter. I personally feel that their negative attitude is a price too high to pay for a glimpse at their knowledge. As Al Carruth says, "there are no secrets in this business, just things we haven't learned yet". But we will learn them by sharing respectfully each of our success and failures.

The next course that Mr. Berkowitz should take is one on interpersonal behavior.

I am a sponsor of this community first to keep my name in the public domain, I don't think that that is a surprise, but with the names on the waiting list these days (Berkowitz included at least till I post this likely!) I really don't need to continue. So now, the reason I keep at it on this forum (the ONLY place I advertise by the way) is because I have a lot 'friends' in this community, I respect the foundation of the forum and I learn a lot from the posts here. I just hope that things remain civil because the forum depends on it. My good company name, and those of the other sponsors, are attached to this community as well and we own a stake in the personality and respect that the forum portrays.

Thanks

Shane

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Canada

Hesh, I assure you the outages are 100% the fault of the DB crashing.
Neither Brock or I have the ability to "crash the DB" from home. Besides, If I wanted to close shop for the evening, I would just click the "Write only" button.

As for the personal conduct of people here, I am at a total freaking loss.
I ask and ask and ask and ask and NOBODY seems to listen or care.

I have made comments in posts, just something simple like "common guys"
only to have the very next post be some kind of sarcastic comment. A type of comment that
I was hopping to curtail with a kind soft handed moderation.

To be honest guys, I am at a loss as to why people cant get along.
There was once a time here when people respected each other, and to a lesser degree respected ME, and
when I had to step in and ask nicely to cool it, that was all it took to douse the flames.
Now, again, its like people could care less what I say. No respect at all. NONE! NATA!

I have neither the time or energy to read/moderate every single post made to this forum. To a large degree I expect and TRUST that the many members of the OLF will self police themselves and try to be on there best behavior.
I cannot tell you how many times I have asked that there be NO CUSSING here, yet almost every day there are instances. I am sick of editing posts with cuss words, COMON PEOPLE! NO CUSSING!

PLEASE BE NICE TO EACH OTHER
NO CUSSING
NO POLITICS
AND NO REGLION

HOW FREAKIN HARD IS THAT!

Some how for some reason I feel at fault for the crap that has been happening here...

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Shane,
while I have no clue of what happened, I do agree with what you are saying.
I have learned from the "foot-in-mouth" experience that if you have nothing good to say maybe he best thing to say is to say nothing....

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

one thing I have wondered at is why threads are locked shut...I don't know how this forum board's software works, but I am quite familiar with the ability for a moderator to edit/delete individual posts in vBulletin's software...from my view closing a thread should be a last resort, and should only be done when the thread itself has totally lost viability...as hinted, I prefer to just go in and start removing posts that don't belong in a thread with a valuable topic/discussion...while some may view this as a form of censorship (and I guess they are right) I view it as a form of keeping things ordered and such...

Lance-
I think that Hesh's comment 'hits the nail on the head' ...

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]
My perception is that the code of conduct does not apply to all members equally. This deeply concerns me.....

[/QUOTE]

It's not just Hesh's perception- there have been many, many examples of this here on the OLF.

John

I think you have unresonable expectations regarding human nature.

I agree, and my comments are pointed at every single person that cant seem to follow the rules. They know how they are.

_________________
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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

[QUOTE=LanceK]
I ask and ask and ask and ask and NOBODY seems to listen or care. [/QUOTE]
Lance, NOBODY is a pretty big word here. There are a handful of us that are kind, respectful and stick up for others when they are wronged. (sadly, that sticking up often results in a fight)
Here's an idea for you: On other forums, the mods have supreme power. If people don't play by the rules, they are warned once and banned the second time. It might be time for the strong arm to hammer down some rules, since there are a select few that don't seem to understand.
I for one am furious that such a "good" forum member as Andy was personally attacked and after apoligizing (which he should have been apologized TO) was attacked again. I didn't get involved out of respect to the community. But as an arm-chair quarterback here, I know I would have pulled the banned that dead weight right after the attack happened. Enough on that.
Shane:   

Your right Paul, NOBODY is a big word.
I guess what I mean is that -that- is what it feels like.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Lance,
I'm behind you 100% and appreciate your effort here.

My recommendation would be for you to drop the hammer right now and lock this stupid thread.

I have to heartily agree with Pwoolson's post.

Being a Mod is not a job of popularity, its a job of keeping the rules and enforcing them, which by its very definition is unpopular!  I've been personally attacked (no here!), been set up, and have had certain people repeatedly use proxies to create totally fake situations, all in the attempt to get me to 'slip up' and 'abuse' my powers. Heh...I know what the ban button is for and use it when it applies!

This forum is not that type of place (yeah, I'm being allusive) and those types of users don't (or very rarely) frequent here...but in the big picture rules are rules...they have to be enforced in some manner to keep other users 'happy'...as noted, I know nothing of this software, but I know that either by inclusion or the addition of a 'hack' vBulletin has a nice feature of 'MUGging' a user for a set period of time (determined by the mod doing it) which results in their use of the forum being not unlike swimming through a vat of molasses on a cold day!  Mods can also temporarily ban a user without having to remember to go back into the control panel and unbanning them a few days later.

In the big picture any forum's viability is many times determined by how it keeps the playing field level for all users, yet at the same time allows for 'reasonable' disputes...I am an opponent of censorship, yet find myself having to do so as required for the betterment of the environment (read feelings of users) of the website.

Mike

Deleting offending posts would seem to be be the way to go, rather than leaving them up for everyone to see and get worked up about it.

It also might be good to not get offended FOR people. Andy seemed like he was handling it well himself and being civil, not getting baited into a fight.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

[QUOTE=LanceK] Your right Paul, NOBODY is a big word.
I guess what I mean is that -that- is what it feels like. [/QUOTE]
I totally understand and realize that one jerk can ruin this whole thing for all of us.

I decided not to post something after reading this because Shane's post
and history here carry so much weight on their own. The more we
discuss it, the heavier it feels and the less likely his message is to be
heard.

Shocked and amazed that this continues to be a problem.

Shane I think you were right in your opinion.

The bigger we get the more we will have miss interpretations and therefore over reactive post replies. Some must just be over looked and allowed to pass away on their own. And on occasion administrative action may need to be taken.

When some one reads one like this the best action is just to send a PM to Lance or Brock so that they can maybe PM the involved parties and handle it off the topics page.

I have known Lance to long to believe that any oversight is intentional or bias. He may choose to look past minor infractions rather than make a fuss. Sometimes no action is the best action. and in this case a fellow member, via this post made the point. I have no doubt it was heard well. However!!; No offence meant at all Shane as I believe you are right, but I personally do not think that posting rebuttals are an effective way to help as they tend to stir up emotions that actually compound the issue. Pm Lance wit issues. He has always addressed any I have ad with nothing but fairness. I may have not liked every outcome (EDIT BUTTON ) but have never been treated any different than he would treat any of the rest of us.

Now !!!! back to building guitars

[QUOTE=letseatpaste] .....It also might be good to not get offended FOR people.....[/QUOTE]
OK - I'm guilty of that.
When a friend is unreasonably attacked, I find that it is better for a friend to come to his defense than the person being attacked.
I felt that the post and accusation was way off base, without merit, mean spirited, nasty....need I go on? I felt it deserved a response. Having been at the course with both these men, I felt that I had more insight than most.
I came to the defence of a friend, and believe it or not showed a lot of restraint in doing so. I would do it again in a heartbeat. If you think I was wrong, let me know by PM.
[QUOTE=letseatpaste]   .....Andy seemed like he was handling it well himself and being civil, not getting baited into a fight......[/QUOTE]Andy handled it very well. I was impressed.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Wow, go away for a couple of hours this morning and look what happens.

Lance and Brock, I'm behind you guys all the way. I've tried to self police and offer strong suggestions in the past to stay on target and to take a fight some were else. I think that's ok to do and will continue to do it unless told otherwise. I also know that I've caused you guys some grief over the years and we've taken care of it.

I highly value this forum as a place for me to learn more and to share what little knowledge I have. It's really not that hard to be nice to people now is it?

Shane I agree with you 100%. I didn't like David's bash over Andy's head this morning, I thought it was rather rude and distasteful. I haven't seen the rest of the thread past his so I don't know what else transpired.

The great sponsors and the active participants are what make this forum so great. It would really be sad to leave here but you know that if stuff like this continues (grown men regularly acting like children) that many will just up and leave. That would be sad, but that's the nature of things.

Thanks Shane for fighting for the OLF and it's members in good standing. There aren't that many who are not in good standing, but there are a few who could check their attitudes at the door.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Andy took the high road, no doubt.
I would not have expected any thing else from him.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Lance,

I agree with Shane, Hesh, Paul and MikeP.

I suspect you know that 99.999% of us here are behind you and Brock all the way. You both have a thankless task in policing this place to keep it civil and reading all the posts to accomplish that is impossible.

Perhaps temporary (or permanent) banning is the way to go. It does seem heavy-handed, but I'm sad to say, maybe it's the only thing that will work. I know for a fact that we've lost members because their heads got bitten off for asking simple questions or they feel they don't have anything to contribute. I and others I've PMed with have stayed away from reading and posting here when things have gotten nasty. I'm with you -- I really can't understand why some people can't seem to conduct themselves like mature adults.

We're behind you, whatever you and Brock decide.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

He did indeed.  He did the one thing that many have asked for, over and over, then he got burned for showing his work.

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Waddy

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