Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi all,
just started a new build, my second try for a 00. Its going to be a 00-42ish guitar, but with som modifications to make it a little 'larsier'.



Question no 1:
This is my first build with ziricote, and a few things strike me. Ive played one or two guitars made with ziri by others, and, yes they sounded really good. But, as I hold this back there is NO taptone at all. Ive taken it down to .085" and its still heavy and stiff, so whats up with this wood?

Question no. 2:
Do you guys know of anybody selling a traditional torchstyle headstock inlay like this?



Question no 3:
Id love to make it with an ivory bridge, but I find it pretty unethical. Is there some other type of bone/horn that can be used? Regular bone(I guess cow) that all the suppliers sell for nuts and saddles?

Thankful for all help!

[QUOTE=Lars Rasmussen] Hi all,
just started a new build, my second try for a 00. Its going to be a 00-42ish guitar, but with som modifications to make it a little 'larsier'.



Question no 1:
This is my first build with ziricote, and a few things strike me. Ive played one or two guitars made with ziri by others, and, yes they sounded really good. But, as I hold this back there is NO taptone at all. Ive taken it down to .085" and its still heavy and stiff, so whats up with this wood?

Question no. 2:
Do you guys know of anybody selling a traditional torchstyle headstock inlay like this?



Question no 3:
Id love to make it with an ivory bridge, but I find it pretty unethical. Is there some other type of bone/horn that can be used? Regular bone(I guess cow) that all the suppliers sell for nuts and saddles?

Thankful for all help!
[/QUOTE]

If reclaimed or pre band ivory why would you consider it unethical?

Lars, I can't help you with question 1 as I've not used it and question 3 is all up to you (but I'd try and find an alternative material). For the torch inlay you can get a close match from Andy Depaule. Torch Inlay (about half way down the page).

_________________
Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

Lars,

I see Andy DePaule has a headstock inlay that looks pretty close: http://www.luthiersupply.com/pegheadinlayTradpage.html

_________________
53% of all statistics are made up on the spot
http://driftwoodguitars.blogspot.com/

Well, lets say it like this; I dont want to stimulate the market for it.

Even if its reclaimed, if more people buy it, more people will go into business to sell it. And since the resource isnt renewable... the more unethical dealers will try to get it elsewhere when its impossible to find more. And I dont think the elephants will like that.

Am I thinking wrong here? Thats just the way I see the situation.

Thanks wayne, I'll go ahead and order that!

And Don, thanks didnt see your post

re: Ivory
[QUOTE=Lars Rasmussen] Well, lets say it like this; I dont want to stimulate the market for it.

Even if its reclaimed, if more people buy it, more people will go into business to sell it. And since the resource isnt renewable... the more unethical dealers will try to get it elsewhere when its impossible to find more. And I dont think the elephants will like that.

Am I thinking wrong here? Thats just the way I see the situation.[/QUOTE]

Your argument makes a lot of sense to me, Lars.
On top of that, there's the practical matter of possibly having a problem taking the guitar across international borders, etc. Who needs the hassle?
Looks like it's going to be a beautiful guitar-thanks for the pics. The OO size range is my favourite.
Cheers
John

I guess I look at it a bit different. if the Ivory is pre-band It has already been harvested prior to the band. (which I think is a good law by the way) then it will either set and be waisted or sold to other usages or to other luthiers and be used.

It is kind of like not using pre cites BRW. OK we should not harvest anymore but what do we do with the inventory already on hand?

To me, to discourage usage because we fear promoting a new market demand has grand merit, but does not address what to do with pre band ivory we have on hand.

I personally would rather see it put to use in musical instruments where the characteristics of the substance brings with it value other than personal pride and vanity unlike jewelry and furnishing ornaments which serves only the vanity of the possessor, and be assured that is where it will go. At least ivory in musical instruments, bring pleasure and tonal quality to more than the owner.

I just find this more fitting and honorable tribute to the elephants that were killed for their (pre-band) ivory than a carved vase or necklace and much more honorable tribute than discarding it.

For an ivory substitite look into Ivory Micarta knife scale material.

I believe that's what Steve Spodaryk made this bridge from.



Louis

_________________
- Louis Freilicher

Oh No! Not another learning experience!

Thanks DP, is the nichols in a different quality than the depaule one? Its slightly more expensive...

Louis, thank you. I know martin now uses micarta on their reissues, maybe thats worth looking into.

Michael, i totally understand your way of thinking, and must admit that i was thinking the same way when I bought my stash of brw... Well, I guess it depends on the particular source, if you buy on the open market or from a private seller. But if there is a reasonable alternative, id like to use that instead.

[QUOTE=Lars Rasmussen]

Question no 3:
Id love to make it with an ivory bridge, but I find it pretty unethical. Is there some other type of bone/horn that can be used? Regular bone(I guess cow) that all the suppliers sell for nuts and saddles?

Thankful for all help!
[/QUOTE]

Use Persimmon. It's a white or grey ebony that grows here in the US. Makes a dandy bridgeplate too.

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John Lewis
Wannabe builder owned by 2 crazy dachshunds

You could also use wooly mammoth ivory. Don't think they are going to get
poached anytime soon...and if they are it would be on an episode of Lost.

And I've regularly taken small guitar backs down to .70 with no problems.
Ziricote likes to crack, but that's not going to change with a few thou off.

Looks like it's going to be a stellar guitar.

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

[QUOTE=Lars Rasmussen] Thanks DP, is the nichols in a different quality than the depaule one? Its slightly more expensive...

Louis, thank you. I know martin now uses micarta on their reissues, maybe thats worth looking into.

Michael, i totally understand your way of thinking, and must admit that i was thinking the same way when I bought my stash of brw... Well, I guess it depends on the particular source, if you buy on the open market or from a private seller. But if there is a reasonable alternative, id like to use that instead.[/QUOTE]

I understand Lars and I don't disagree that much

By the way DePaule's inlays are top quality, none better if you want natural shell cut buy some of the most talented shell workers in Vietnam. I am sure the labor price is is much less than what Nichols gets. but the shell and the work from Andy DePaule is just as good.

[QUOTE=John Mayes] You could also use wooly mammoth ivory. Don't think they are going to get
poached anytime soon...and if they are it would be on an episode of Lost.

And I've regularly taken small guitar backs down to .70 with no problems.
Ziricote likes to crack, but that's not going to change with a few thou off.

Looks like it's going to be a stellar guitar.[/QUOTE]

Thank you John. Yes, if its already extinct I guess it cant complain over it.

How is your general experience with ziricote, is it always having a very dull taptone, or is it just this partcular piece that has inbuilt tensions or something that kills the tone?

I have ordered from Andy depaule previously, but only strips so those didnt show any precision work.

Looks like I'll order the torches from him then!

[QUOTE=Lars Rasmussen] [QUOTE=John Mayes] You could also use
wooly mammoth ivory. Don't think they are going to get
poached anytime soon...and if they are it would be on an episode of Lost.

And I've regularly taken small guitar backs down to .70 with no problems.
Ziricote likes to crack, but that's not going to change with a few thou off.

Looks like it's going to be a stellar guitar.[/QUOTE]

Thank you John. Yes, if its already extinct I guess it cant complain over it.

How is your general experience with ziricote, is it always having a very
dull taptone, or is it just this partcular piece that has inbuilt tensions or
something that kills the tone?[/QUOTE]

I have liked the Ziricote I've worked with. It has always had nice tap tones
and the guitars ended up nice in the final product as well. But I've seen,
time and time again, ziricotes propensity to split for no rhyme or reason.
Never the less I'd still work with it. It makes very nice guitars, and your
set looks amazing.

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

I haven't heard the Ivory Band; are they any good?

Nah, they aren't very good, they are a pre-band!  I guess they are still practicing. 

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] I haven't heard the Ivory Band; are they any good?[/QUOTE]

Kind of stiff sounding, but pretty good looking

John, thanks for sharing your experience with Z. Guess I'll take it down some more and see if it comes.

on the ivory note
I agree with michaelp,
I reacently was given a whole ivory tusk from a female african elephant.
My freind gave me this after finding it in a skip would you belive.
The skip was in front of a house that was being cleared becouse the
owner had died of cancer and the tucsk was poor shape (it had been
snapped off the origonal trophy and drawn over with permanant marker
and had dad scratched into it).
my dilema was of the obviuose ethical nature of using it but i decided
that it was much more ethical to use and donate some money to an anti
poaching charity than to throw it away.
It was very hard for me to come to this decision but someone pointed out
the brw link to me and that made it easier.
I have now cut half of into 20 nuts and 20 saddles and will cut the rest
once this is used up (a very long time away at the rate i build)

So the moral of the story is that it is not allways unsthical to use cites
listed materiels.
and as luthiers we will prabably have to look to reclaimed sources for our
favourate materiels including species such as mahogany in the not to
distant future.
Will you feel bad about using a honduras mahogany neck blank that you
reclaimed from a bar top in 20 years time if that is the only place you can
get it.

Its the same thing i just think that its easier to get emotional when
animals are involved.

thats just my opinoin and i sure that many of will diagree.

Joel.

your guitar looks great by he way well done.