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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:47 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Hopefully by starting a new thread we can put an end to the problem in the last one.

I thought that conversation was starting to get good and thought we could continue our marketing conversation over here.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:05 pm 
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I think I'd best stay out of the fray for a while...

I did manage to machine rough carve 42 necks today, though...and the guitars are all sold.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:11 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Ok, so to pick up where we left off.

(Admittedly this hops around a bit.... but these are all thoughts I had while reading past comments)

I agree with Dave and Hesh on pretty much everything. With all of us our "disagreements" are only on the fine points, not on the broad strokes.

I still say though... that I think brand is the heart of everything (for any business, luthier or otherwise). But I completely agree that you need to do ALL the homework, do all the research, look at the implications of different brand strategies -- do a gut check to say "even though this is a good market, is it the right one for me?" (which is a very valid question which many companies don't realistically evaluate)... and then make a decision, plant a flag in the earth and boldly state..

I am the the guy to see when you want an "X"

In marketing a tremendous amount of energy goes into something called "the elevator speech". It is essentaially your ENTIRE PITCH in 45 seconds. You have to say what you do, why it is special, how you are different, and communicate the benefit to the client. Trust me when I tell you that is tough. Excruciatingly so.

Someone should poke a LOT of holes in your elevator speech. Brutal honesty is what you need here. CEOs don't like this process, VPs don't like this process, and luthiers definitely don't like this process.. but it is one of the conerstones (IMO) to success. This pitch has to be perfect.

How many times have you heard "We are the industry leader providing quality products at a competitive price." --- YAWN!!!! That means absolutely nothing because EVERYONE SAYS IT. NOT ONE CONSUMER ON THIS EARTH BELIEVES THIS STATEMENT --- but you can bet your paycheck the guys in the boardroom have it engraved on a plaque over the door.

You have to communicate something real, something believable, and something unique to pierce the consumers armor and get their attention.

I think that this is the seed for branding.

Once you have this in hand - you know what you ARE and more importantly what you ARE NOT. Then you have a tool to kick serious butt with.

We are not selling 1 million widgets a year, not 10,000 not 1,000, not even 100 (well ... Rick is) .. for most individual luthiers our entire output is ~20 gutiars a year.

Finding this branding core and working hard ton CONSISTANTLY push that message out to your very carefully defined target client you will be able to sell your 100% of your annual output. (Providing your guitars are good. Selling crap will catch up to you sooner or later).


As to hiring a firm or consultant to help... I sort of go both ways. On the one hand... I think consultants can help facilitate and clarify your thinking. The good ones will not TELL you what to do, they will coach you through the process of discovering what you SHOULD do. You actually do most of the work. They are more like psychologists helping you sort through your personal problems. :-) I think there is value in this, but I also think that if you approach it correctly you can do some of it yourself. Get a good book and work through it.

Investing in research is always a great idea, but it is expensive. Grass roots straw polls etc are ok, but they are severely flawed. They are good to get a tack on which way the wind is blowing, but you shouldn't set the entire course of your marketing by a few quick polls you ran on an internet site.

PR... To me, this is the golden goose. If you are going to spend money I think this is the place to do it. You HAVE to advertise, but realistically you won't be able to afford to do much outbound advertising. PR dollars go farther and yeild far more results. A great book is "Full Frontal PR" .. it is very up to date and is packed with good ideas. And you can find pros to coach you along in PR, and I think you can find a publisist for as little as $500 a month in most markets.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:12 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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[QUOTE=Rick Turner] I think I'd best stay out of the fray for a while....[/QUOTE]

Oh.. come on...

You are essential to a converation like this.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:21 pm 
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Has been an enjoyable topic...at least the on-topic stuff. I'm always interested in the luthier/dealer relationship topics, of course, but also in anything that brings up business plans. If there's one single "right way" to make it long-term as a luthier, it's not apparent to me. A number of people seem to have gone their own way and done great, and a lot of good builders have had to give up their craft and move on to something else or have continued building but are surprisingly marginalized when it comes to the who's who conversations.

Keep 'em coming!

Andrew



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:41 pm 
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First name: Rick
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Thanks for starting a new thread on this.  I followed the other with great interest.  This information is priceless for a new builder like myself.  Thanks so much!!! 

I have bought the building books and the building video's and have joined the building organizations.  I am building jigs and buying wood and tools...  etc...

But that last thread and what this thread can be are things not in any other media form that I've found.  Hell...  you could write a book on the knowledge you guys were sharing with the rest of us on this topic.

Thanks again...  Keep it up please!

AND...  I sure appreciate Rick Turner's past opinions and input on this topic and hope he keeps em coming.

Now......  I'll just sit back, read and go to school again on this thread


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:10 pm 
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Koa
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Ummm, I have to be gone from here for a while this week because of heavy production pressures. It's 8:00 PM, and I have two coats of finish to put on two instruments and a coat of sealer to put on five, and I'm laying out patterns for uke backs and sides on some Brazilian to make some U-28s and 42s...ukulele 28's & 42's that will get Adi tops...it's a limited edition run, and that's marketing, folks..."Pre-War specs on tenor ukes..." What war? The next one...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:21 pm 
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My professional concerns are with wooden canoes.  While not guitars, (I work on that during my breaks) there are many parallels.

I agree with a lot of what has been said.  We're too small to compete head-on with the big companies.  As has been previously said, we have to find out what we can do that they do not/can not.

I also agree that we have to think hard and figure out what we want to be, we can't be everything to everybody.  Be something and be it well.

Marketing is tough and expensive.  Its difficult to convey to prospective clients what our work is about in print.  Pretty much impossible.  I have found it most effective to actually get my work face to face with real people.  They can see it, touch it, experience it.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:26 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I have a weird approach to selling guitars. I let them sell themself.


That may sound strange, but it is what I have built my business on. All of the talking I can do wont influence anyone. Most ordinary guitar players have no idea what goes into building one, so tellingthem all the things I do to make one sound good wont impress them at all.


I tell them up front that my guitars arent cheap. I build them because I love building each one and it is almost like raising a child. I take pride in each one and every step of the process. If they want a cheap guitar, I can reccomend several guitar shops in town. For a fee, I'll go with them and help them pick out a good one in their price range. If they want a one-off hand crafted guitar that sounds like nothing else, then come see me. I dont work for free though. I put my name on each one and my name and my reputation is all I have in life.


All of this may sound a bit arrogant, but it is not intended that way. When I tell them that, they understand.


 


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:57 pm 
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Thanks for splitting this off Brock, and if anyone's just joined this - there's probably some useful information in the previous thread - just before it closed I posted an old internal document I wrote for my marketing company years back.

[quote=Brock]In marketing a tremendous amount of energy goes into something called "the elevator speech". It is essentaially your ENTIRE PITCH in 45 seconds. You have to say what you do, why it is special, how you are different, and communicate the benefit to the client. Trust me when I tell you that is tough. Excruciatingly so.

Someone should poke a LOT of holes in your elevator speech. Brutal honesty is what you need here. CEOs don't like this process, VPs don't like this process, and luthiers definitely don't like this process.. but it is one of the conerstones (IMO) to success. This pitch has to be perfect.[/quote]

I tended to eschew this method, largely because in the UK we're a cynical bunch, and the elevator speech is very American. Now, I know that might sound bad, but it's not a value statement, it's purely experience which told us the short sharp pitch never really worked over here.

We found that truly successful marketing was all about asking questions and not making statements. There's a good phrase which covers this: Telling is not Selling. If you're telling the prospect what you do, you're not selling to them. Sure, sometimes it will work, but you'll get more misses than hits (at least this side of the pond anyway).

Instead, having a secure and thorough understanding of where your value proposition sits, you are able to ask the right questions to establish that you are a match to your prospect's needs, then can use the very answers the prospect gave to demonstrate that. People are much better at selling to themselves than we could ever be at selling to them.

The 'Key Creative Takeout' is as close as we came to a pitch, which is in essence the message you want the prospect to have after your interaction. The key thing here though, is that you allow the prospect to form that picture themselves and don't spell it out for them.

[quote=Brock]How many times have you heard "We are the industry leader providing quality products at a competitive price." --- YAWN!!!! That means absolutely nothing because EVERYONE SAYS IT. NOT ONE CONSUMER ON THIS EARTH BELIEVES THIS STATEMENT --- but you can bet your paycheck the guys in the boardroom have it engraved on a plaque over the door.

You have to communicate something real, something believable, and something unique to pierce the consumers armor and get their attention.[/quote]

Very very true, Brock! And it's good to see a small businessman who already understands this. :) In essence the reason this is so unbelievable is that it means nothing. After all, if you were a prospect, you'd hope they would believe they were industry leading, and that their products were quality and competitively priced. After all, the alternative is them telling you that they believe they're tailing the rest of their industry and they make somewhat shoddy products which are overly-expensive. No one's going to say that are they? Given that fact, the original statement has no impact.

We used to concentrate on what we called 'five power words' in terms fo value propositions. You would try to come up with one or more statements which began with each of these words. It was the result of a study into which words, psychologically, made people sit up and listen. They are all about what you can do for the prospect. The words were: Increase, Improve, Reduce, Save, Gain.

I'd suggest that in terms of luthierie, without spending the time on looking into it in detail, we'd probably be concentrating on the Gain statements.

[quote=Ken]I have a weird approach to selling guitars. I let them sell themself.[/quote]

This isn't wierd at all (which I hope you're pleased to know). In fact I'd go so far as to say I've never marketed a product which isn't capable of selling itself. ;)

What you do, by the sounds of it, and if you don't mind me being analytical for a moment, is paint a romantic picture of the production process and allow your prospects to fall in love with the process, the maker, and then by association they believe they will automatically love the final product.

This technique tend to work much better on smaller-scale word-of-mouth type operations (as I think was mentuioned in the last thread) and is a lot harder to pull off large-scale.

To compare; the last time I saw a really successful large-scale romantic marketing campaign was probably that Budwieser one we had over here where they gave each bottle a 'Birthday' romanticising the whole brewing and bottling process. Of course, if you were to see it yourself you'd realise just how cold and industrial it was, but goodness me that campaign was a good one. :)

Anyway, the only real issue with romantic marketing is it's lack of scalability. because you make the size of your company a selling point, it makes it difficult to ramp up quickly should you decide you need to. However, given the activity you're engaged in I really can't see this being a problem. So I'd say for your proposition and your market position,assuming it's working at the rate you want it to, you've picked a good one, even if it was subconscious and it just feels natural to you. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:27 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I agree with Brock in that PR is WAY more valuable to me than advertising. I could spend $300 a month on a tiny AG ad that never gets seen. Or I could use that money to attend shows, jams, gatherings, etc. where players are attending. Sitting down with them, telling them my story, getting to know them and sticking a guitar in their hands.
In my opinion, the personal relationships are huge if you have time to make them. And I make the time.
Someone like Rick might not have that kind of time to get to know everyone, he sells to, on a personal level. To me, it's the most important part of the process.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:39 pm 
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I will say this. A nice 3" x 3" ad in a trade magazine (AG, FGM, Vintage Guitar, whatever) is NEVER going to make me contact a maker to find out more about what they do and if I'd be interested in their guitars. A single post by someone more-or-less credible on an online forum will.

Ridiculous? Sure. But as others have pointed out, word-of-mouth and the assurance it gives us that someone else is as impressed as we are about a certain guitar or a certain maker goes a LONG way to making us feel comfortable with a purchase.


Andrew


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:44 pm 
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Paul,


That is exactly what I was alluding to on my marketing efforts. The only flaw to that process is that it takes me away from building guitars for what ever period I am gone, plus the time it takes to prepare for the show or appearance.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:19 pm 
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[QUOTE=Hodges_Guitars]

Paul,


That is exactly what I was alluding to on my marketing efforts. The only flaw to that process is that it takes me away from building guitars for what ever period I am gone, plus the time it takes to prepare for the show or appearance.

[/QUOTE]
Agreed, but in my opinion, it's very worth it. Also, it gets the word out about your guitars at a manageable speed. Too fast and you can't keep up, too slow and, well I guess that's where the job at the Home Depot comes into play.
I've posted several times about not putting the cart before the horse when it comes to your (my) building efforts. If you market yourself as a great builder before you are one, it can have disastrous effects. Sending a guitar that has bad fretwork and is unplayable can ruin a builder if it gets into the wrong hands. That person can get on every forum and slam the builder into unemployment faster than you can imagine. And no amount of "defending yourself" can offset the damage done by one "he's terrible" post.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:05 am 
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I do agree that an ad in a trade magazine will not invoke someone to order a guitar by it self.
But, that ad is just one way to cultivate your "Brand". Staying "present" in the
minds of potential customers. Part of an overall strategy.
I will admit, when I get my AG each month, the VERY FIRST THING I DO, is browsing the ads to see if there
are any new luthiers listed.
Back in my younger years, I uses to race quads and had a subscription to 4Wheeler. Same deal, each month I could not wait to get my mag to sift through the advertisements.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:59 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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[QUOTE=Dave Bamber]Very very true, Brock! And it's good to see a small businessman who already understands this. :)[/QUOTE]

Well... fessing up... I cheat.

I have owned a bunch of marketing agencies and communication businesses.


I get your point about the elevator speech. Trust me ... we are not disagreeing about anything of substance.

However, I look at the "process" of creating that elevator speech to be the real value -- not the outcome. It gets people out of their comfort areas, forces them to look at what REALLY makes them different, helps them focus on what REALLY makes the customer take notice, and zero in on the VALUE the customers will choose them for.

I am not really suggesting people use the elevator speech in a sales effort.



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:05 am 
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[QUOTE=Hodges_Guitars]

I have a weird approach to selling guitars. I let them sell themself.


That may sound strange, but it is what I have built my business on. All of the talking I can do wont influence anyone. Most ordinary guitar players have no idea what goes into building one, so tellingthem all the things I do to make one sound good wont impress them at all.


I tell them up front that my guitars arent cheap. I build them because I love building each one and it is almost like raising a child. I take pride in each one and every step of the process. If they want a cheap guitar, I can reccomend several guitar shops in town. For a fee, I'll go with them and help them pick out a good one in their price range. If they want a one-off hand crafted guitar that sounds like nothing else, then come see me. I dont work for free though. I put my name on each one and my name and my reputation is all I have in life.


All of this may sound a bit arrogant, but it is not intended that way. When I tell them that, they understand.


 

[/QUOTE]


It is great that this is working for you. But I see a couple problems with this strategy in the long run.

Principally, you are not in control. What the market "thinks" and "knows" about you and your guitars is totally organic. You don't have much of a hand in crafting that opinion.

I know some successful luthiers have used this approach and it has worked for them... but the problem is, you never hear from the one's that were unsuccessful.

I am all about having a good product that people want, but we are selling much much more than a guitar.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:18 am 
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Don't know if this is pertinent, but I see a lot of people trying to get out of the "one man show" businesses (mostly consulting), purely because of marketing and sales.  They are "technicians", "managers" and "engineers" who are very good at what they do, and love doing it, but are not "sales & marketing" people.  They love their work but hate the part that sells it.  I'm a headhunter, I love my work too, but hate the sales and marketing part.  I, have, however been in it for over 30 years.  Can't seem to find another job.  

I often tell professionals who are contemplating consulting as a career, that they better love to sell, because they will probably spend at least 30 to 50% (Probably more in the beginning.) of their time doing that and not in practicing their trade.  And once you have cut the corporate string, getting back in is a tough battle.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:01 am 
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[QUOTE=Hesh1956] I think that it would be appropriate to bring this discussion down from the 30,000 feet level of marketing and sales theory and talk about where the rubber meets the road – sales and personal buying styles.[/QUOTE]

I agree 150% with everything you just said (maybe even more )...

with one caution.

the stuff at 30,000 feet lays the groundwork for everything else. SOOOOOOOO many companies jump right to the tactics and I think this is a HUGE mistake.

The world's best brands do the homework first. I know Hesh isn't advocating this... but I just want to point out don't just "skip" the high level stuff to get to the advertising, marketing and selling.






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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:02 am 
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Hesh - thos are absolutely great, practical, tips there! That's the area I can't help with too much as my experience of actually selling custom guitars is nil.

Prequalification is definately something which is vitally important. From what I've read here in the archives a few of you have already experienced exhibiting at trade shows and ending up spending time speaking with a hobbyist luthier and not realising it immediately. Those few extra minutes you took to realise what was going on could potentially mean a genuine prospect didn't want to interrupt so moved to the next booth. Although it may seem rude to dismiss non-prospects, how much is your uncomfortable feeling of rudeness worth to you? One guitar's profit, two? Prequalify early, and requalify often.

Also- another classic mistake is forgetting to ask for the sale. Sounds silly, but it's actually really natural to talk to someone about 'possibilities' or 'options' for a sale without getting a tacit or explicit agreement that there will be a sale. Close early and close often. In essence you want to try to tip the balance in favour of more conversation time as billable aspects of a build, rather than as marketing spend. So although obviously you have to be prepared to spend a little time answering questions relating to your process and product, ultimately you want to end these conversations with a suggestion that you both put pen to paper and move forwards.

Also, don't try to fit a square peg into a round hole. Just because you've invested a lot of time in a prospect, that's not a commitment. If things begin emerging which suggest that you aren't going to work together well at this point, better to part company earlier, than try to change what you offer or what you ask for to the point where you're outside of yoiur comfort zone, and risk providing a bad product or not making any money. Companies who do this I used to describe as being 'Determined to take the sale no matter what the cost'. Given the value of any sale is only as good as the customer's cash minus your costs, you have to be aware of when potentially lost sales due to forcing something through will outweigh the immediate profit from the sale.

Anyway - I'm rabbitting on now, and this is seriously interfering with my first rosette designing time... ;)

Hope some of it has helped...


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:51 am 
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If you want to see if your getting press ,just google your name. While your at it look at the hits for Turner guitars!
Lance


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:53 am 
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Yeah, you can even set up Google Alerts to notify you when it finds something about you.

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