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@Sam - Believe me, it's not just crafts where you have to market yourself very aggressively to get started. Any business is the exact same way, and yup - it seriously interferes with your time to spend doing the thing which you wanted to do in the first place, be that writing software or making guitars. Again, that's why I personally wouldn't choose to do it myself. I would also add, however, that the artistic flair you have put into your builds as I've seen them is something which can and will no doubt caputure buyer's attention, so you've already got a leg-up in that respect.

@burbank - there's a marketing 'name' for this phenomenon - it's called the 'fleamarket syndrome'. It's that old story of 'Hey, isn't that an original joe soap rug? Where'd you get it?' 'I got it from this little fleamarket in town...' cue smug grin. There is no doubt this works, but it's definately something which can only be effective reactively (when your prospect has sought you out) rather than proactively (when you seek your prospects).

@hesh - hehe, yes, this is starvation marketing. You actually see it more than you'd think in modern blue chip marketing companies. Think of the buzz lightyear dolls a few years back (the famous example). A lot of people wanted them, so production runs were held back, which meant they were difficult to get, which meant more people wanted them just to say they had them and on and on. However, this method can backfire if you don't live up to your hype. A good example of this backfiring was the recent Sony Playstation 3. Production was held back, there were very few units available upon launch, but the product didn't live up to it's hype for those who bought it. End result - it's now half the price it was. How well does this translate to custom guitars? Well, I guess the aforementioned W. Henderson doesn't do too badly from it.... ;)

@fmorelli - In the case of building guitars, as a fairly obsessinve guitar-player already, I can say I would not want my guitar building to be measured by the money I put in. However - *if* you want this to be a business, be prepared for that dollar figure to be king. Shaving just $10 off the cost of a build, if you're going 60 guitars a year means $600 more profit to you at the end of that year. That's $600 more that you can put in your kids college fund, or one less car maintenance bill to worry about paying for. Unfortunately I've never met a businessman who didn't care about money and how has lasted more than a year. A sad but true fact in today's modern world. :(

@Rick - as I metioned above I agree that in reality you're 110% right. In fact, I think yiou've probably got quite a lot you could share on this subject as you have done a very good job of being visible even to people who don't usually look at customs. Before I got into all of this, Renaissance was one of the few 'brands' of custom guitar I could have named if you'd asked me (along with Lowden, Omega, Borgouis, Ryan and Olsen probably) So whatever you're doing, marketing wise, I'd say you're doing it pretty well. I just hope I'll get a chance to try one of your guitars some day :)

I think this has been a fascinating thread so far, and I, personally, would be very interested to hear how people percieve themselves in the marketplace, as well as how they've heard their customers percieve them. Just out of curiosity really...

Ooh, I see Kevin just posted while I was writing my last reply...

@Kevin - what you say there is spot on. Percieved value is king to the general public. It doesn't matter if you are sourcing the same B/S set from the same billet from the same supplier as another guy, If the other guy says it cost him $1000 but they'll do it to the prospect for $1100, but in actual fact it costs $500 and you tell the same prospect that you will charge them $700 for it. Assuming the prospect is in that 'I want the best no matter the cost' frame of mind - they'll be easily taken in by the other guy.

I remember a clinet of ours back in the marekting business. They came to us looking to pre-sell a very difficult proposition to the oil and gas industry, and I gave them a pretty reasonable quote, which was fairly steep, but then I knew that they needed subject matter experts who would have to be personally mentored by me in sales techniques who could speak on equal terms without deference to contacts at the level of MD within multi-billion dollar companies.

Anyway - they called me back after a week and told me they were going to go with one of our competitors becuase they had quoted them considerably lower than us. Ah well, you win some you lose some right?

Wrong - three months later the client calls me and arranges a meeting. He tells me in confidence (hence why the lack of names here) that this other company had produced no actionable results at all in three months. I had to allow myself a moment of amusment where I said to the guy, all deadpan, "Well Mr. <name>, if I'd known those were the sorts of results you wanted we could have done it even cheaper than <competitors name>."

We both had a chuckle and he then gave us the business and after a very successful campaign became one of out key testimonial providers.

I learned a lesson there, though, about correctly identifying and remembering to emphasis USPs...

I can understand where you're coming from, Filippo. As a 26 year old out
of college, most of my peers around the United States are working more
than 50 hours a week. Their minds are active, busy, and restless with the
clutter of competing and distracted thoughts that can easily keep them
unbalanced and focussed on external matters. This is from a Business
Week article I keep on hand to remind me that my world view wants
something different:

Over 31% of college-educated male workers are regularly logging 50 or
more hours a week at work, up from 22% in 1980. About 40% of American
adults get less than seven hours of sleep on weekdays, up from 34% in
2001. Almost 60% of meals are rushed, and 34% of lunches are choked
down on the run. To avoid wasting time, we’re talking on our cell phones
while rushing to work, answering e-mails during conference calls, waking
up at 4 a.m. to call Europe, and generally multitasking our brains out.

- BusinessWeek, October 3, 2005

Modernity placed an emphasis on the “herculean labor” of intellectual
work (Kant) and asserted that every action must have meaning—that
being passive is senseless (Rauschning, Gesprach mit Hitler). It seems like
that's a culture you want to change, and I like that.

That said, I don't think you're using Rick's words fairly. His posts here
can be pretty sardonic, and I know from past bits of banter between the
two of you, you'd probably like the mental picture of him giving Meryl
Streep's character from The Devil Wears Prada a run for her money.
This is what I can tell you though---Meryl here took more than an hour
out of his day to hang with my sister and I in August, tour us around,
teach me something about fretwork, chat it up in his office, and get me in
with Jeff Traugott. He certainly isn't asking questions here either. He's
cruising around answering questions and changing how much excellence
we want to pull out of ourselves as we work (at least I've seen that
response in myself). He couldn't have been kinder to me.

Rick's mentioned that his son has special needs in the same posts he's
mentioned needing to make as much as he can. I'm working on a degree
in special education, and I wish I could let you know how few of the
parents I've been with don't want to opt out.

I do think his words and character speak for themselves, but I'm hearing
something different than I think you've heard. I appreciate your rejection
of a culture that's really taking over more of the United States; I'm also
glad your friend's been able to lead what seems like a good life that
blends his home life and occupation in a healthy way. I do wish you could
be more respectful that someone wants to approach their business
differently (although I think if you saw how Rick was interacting with his
clients on the MTV show, or with Henry Kaiser, I don't know that you'd see
much difference).

Thanks for reading.        &nbs p; 

Ummm, Fillipo, you kind of dodged my question.   Are you a professional luthier? I believe it is relevant to the issue at hand as it establishes a certain level of credibility in a discussion about marketing.   It's one thing to stand outside this arena and comment when it's not your ass on the line every day; it's quite another to hear from the pros in both guitar making and marketing as we've been doing here. It's very easy to go all high and mighty and critical of others whose work one does not do; it's another thing to have done this for decades and still be doing it as some here have done.   

Kevin,

I enjoyed your words of wisdom on this matter and no doubt they come from experience! Thank you for your perspective.

I am not a moderator and Lance and Brock likely will not appreciate my
request to you to avoid being belittling with other members.

Then why did you feel it was necessary for you to do so?

This forum would run much more smoothly without self-appointed moderators...

Guys, I just finished reading this thread, it is chocked full of great information, It would be a terrible shame if we had to lock it down because some tempers were flaring. Please remember that first and foremost we must be "Kind to one another" Period!
Everything will work out in the end if we proceed with kindness.


Please do this.

_________________
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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

With all due respect to all who have contributed to this great thread, I see nothing at all wrong with the divergent opinions expressed so far. I actually appreciate the different perspectives that have been aired.

I honestly didn't feel any tension in the air until it was mentioned that people might be driven away. Let's hope that doesn't happen...we need all of the good folks who have contributed much wisdom so far.

Can anyone who has felt belittled or offended just take a deep breath...I'm sure there was no malicious intent ever intended. I honestly have sensed no malice in anyone's post.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I honestly have sensed no malice in anyone's post.

Precisely why Hesh's post was so unnecessary, and why I felt it necessary to point out that it was completely unnecessary. From the looks of my inbox which just lit up, seems I'm not alone...

Ever notice how using a word too often, in the same sentence, kinda makes it begin to sound funny? <bg> Now I find it necessary to use the word necessary as often as necessarily necessary, even if completely unnecessarily necessary.....

What were we talkin' about?

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

I don't think anything I said was out of line.

This whole thread is about "Perspective", and mine is the perspective of a professional luthier who has been doing this stuff for a living for much of the past 44 years. I guess I have to subtract the five years I was a professional touring and recording musician and live sound mixer and the eight years I was a cabinet maker/carpenter, but I'll admit, I get tweaked when non-pros come in and go all high and mighty about how they don't worry about the financial end of lutherie because it's a high art and they're above such lowly issues as finance.

If anyone was expressing a belittling attitude here, I'd suggest it was Filippo who seemed to be haughtily suggesting that his pal was above all this grubby money crap. I merely wanted to know "where Filippo was coming from"...that is to say that I wanted a read on his true perspective.   Is he a pro or is he an amateur?   That is an entirely relevant question when the subject at hand is perspective and has turned into a discussion about marketing and sales.   He ducked the direct question; I pressed him on it, and now it's implied that I drove him out the door. If he left, it's because he didn't want to be held responsible for the perspective of his opinion.

Look, guys (and you are mostly guys, more's the pity...) there is a kind of un-spoken tension between the pros and the amateurs and the wannabe-pros in lutherie. Let's not pretend it doesn't exist. I run into it all the time with many amateurs being quite hostile and defensive when I/we pros suggest that a) money is important, b) there are fast ways to build good guitars, c) there are more important things than "polishing the end block to 12,000 grit" (OK, that's an exaggeration, but not by much...), d) there's nothing like getting a few score guitars under your belt to teach you what you can't read on-line, e) etc., etc., etc.

I would suggest to the overly sensitive types the old adage, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." Professional lutherie is not for wimps.

And I'd love to see a place for pro luthiers to openly discuss their craft, art, and yes, business.   If it's not here, then where is it? Do we need a vetted pros-only forum?   I would hope not...

I say, the more discourse on the business side the better, and certainly folks like Rick, Dave, Kevin, and Brock, (Thanks guys, for your words in this thread) who are either long-time pros or marketing wizards, will get my attention. I'm personally going to make sure my skin is nice and thick, check my attitude at the door, and take my personal opinions and my pre-conceived ideas and push them to the side so that I may learn...and this is indeed about business for many of us. It is for me, as I would love to someday walk away from my career and build guitars as a retirement career. Or maybe I would like to do that sooner than retirement. Who knows? But without a great understanding of the Economics of the market, and the marketing and sales end of it, I'm afraid my art will only be known after I'm dead and buried. It does me no good then, now does it?

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I think the problem here is that there are as many ways to be successful at the guitar building  business as there are of building a guitar.  Some successful builders who may be making a decent living at it, may have a much more local market or specialty market.  Their marketing efforts will vary greatly (word of mouth) from those who seek broader markets and higher volume, but the point of view is still valid.  It does not mean that the person seeking the broad market is wrong, just different.  If we can't be different without being put down, we do have a problem.  That goes both ways.  Also, in a forum with this many individuals, and levels, if we can't take a jab, we should stay out of the ring.  Rick asked a fair question for a discussion of "Perspective", but somewhere it got personal.  We need to not take every disagreement personally.  We also need to not push peoples buttons with personal remarks attached to, or in response to, valid questions.

My chin is up, and waiting!

Please notice I didn't offer any expertise in the market at all.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

One person's view of success, and the attitude they adopt about it, is not necessarily the same as another's. When I think of success as a guitar maker, it means being able to make a decent, middle class living for where I am geographically...Santa Cruz, California...and it means being able to raise my fourth kid who is 12 who has special medical needs, it means paying for medical insurance for myself...not cheap at age 63; and it means being able to replace a car that's not going to make it another 30,000 miles; and it means a lot of other reasonable life-style choices.   

I am not interested in the vow-of-poverty luthier life-style...that of the artiste who looks down upon anyone who knows how do do an Excel spreadsheet. Nor am I very interested in the perspective of amateurs who have financially great "day jobs" who can afford to spend 400 hours making one guitar.   Nor am I particularly interested in the viewpoint of builders who labor over minute visual details at the expense of knowing how to do a great fret job.

I am interested in how to do a better job faster. I'm interested in lowering my warranty job work load, not that it's bad...I'd just like to have none.   I want to know if there's a better finish than what I'm using.   I want to know if the Tri-Master blades beat the Laguna carbide blades.   I want to know if there's a better method of scientifically predicting guitar response. I want to know a lot of things that will help me make better instruments in less time...

I'd love to see a place for pro luthiers to openly discuss their craft,
art, and yes, business.   If it's not here, then where is it?

The new ASIA forum was hoped to be such a place, and even had a 'by invitation-only' section for a short while, but it a) didn't attract many and b) the invite-only section was seen as an old boy's club by those not in there.

Fact is, pros are by far the minority of forumites(30%? I would think more likely to be closer to 3%). What is nice, though, is that we often get perspectives and advice frm non-pro luthiers who are pros in related fields, such as Dave with his tax advice or the member here with his marketing experience. If we had a "pro luthier-only" forum, we'd miss out on these exchanges.

What we don't need are self-appointed moderators. If Lance or Brock feels we're out of line, they have the right to, and will, reel us all in. If someone feels belittled, they can speak up for themselves. Please and thank you <bg>

Let us continue forward.

Might be easier to glean some knowledge here if we didn't have to sift thru all this crap to get it huh, lets move on.....

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

I'm OK, Hesh.  Like I said, I don't have a dog in the hunt.  The chin out remark, was my feeble attempt at humor, which I am want to do.  I have taken no offense, nor would it be easy for someone to offend me, as I have seen too many take offense at unintentional put downs.  I spend my days telling people they aren't qualified for the job they obviously thought they were qualified for.  Maybe one in a hundred will be a fit.  I try to let them down softly, but some just can't hear it.  It is true here too.  It is not easy to have your opinion questioned.  We all need to work at it, though.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=WaddyT] I think the problem here is that there are as many ways to be successful at the guitar building  business as there are of building a guitar.  Some successful builders who may be making a decent living at it, may have a much more local market or specialty market.  Their marketing efforts will vary greatly (word of mouth) from those who seek broader markets and higher volume, but the point of view is still valid.  It does not mean that the person seeking the broad market is wrong, just different.  If we can't be different without being put down, we do have a problem.  That goes both ways.  Also, in a forum with this many individuals, and levels, if we can't take a jab, we should stay out of the ring.  Rick asked a fair question for a discussion of "Perspective", but somewhere it got personal.  We need to not take every disagreement personally.  We also need to not push peoples buttons with personal remarks attached to, or in response to, valid questions.My chin is up, and waiting! Please notice I didn't offer any expertise in the market at all.
[/QUOTE]


I would agree... there are many many ways to be successful at maketing -- and an infinite number of ways to be unsuccessful.

The problem I see with most small buisnesses (luthiers included) is poor planning with respect to marketing. It is possible to get lucky and be successful simply by doing great work, but that is a terrible strategy. It relies on chance, word of mouth (which in this situation you have NO control over) and an organic exposure.

I think successful marketing first starts with a crystal clear picture of who your market is, what your differentiation in the market is, who your (real) competitors are, and what the customers in your little niche want.

Secondarily, you need to craft a brand from the top down. Everything you do should support your overall goals... starting with the quality of your product and then from the way you answer the phone, to the shirt you wear at a show, to the price of your gutiars, to the selection of tuners and cases. Everything.... It is all part of the "experience".

After that ... tactics get involved, web sites, advertising, sales, PR, etc. but by this point the goals are very well established and it is much easier to make all these efforts support the overall goal.

(I am not sure if this had anything to do with your original point... your comments just made me think about this.)

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

                EDIT!!!
Opinions are like """"" well you guys know the saying so hear is mine. Call me crazy, ugly or a fool thetas fine,

in another tread Rick had made a general comment about looking down on MTV VH1 not directed in my opinion at flip. Then came this
from flip
""
As for looking down my nose .... I'll let your own comments and choice of words speak to your character.

Rick let it go by

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...