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[QUOTE=Rick Turner] Most Rolls drivers learned to drive in something more
Ford-like. A Cortina, perhaps...[/QUOTE]

Most owners of Rollers have someone to do the driving for them

Don't know if this will be of any help, but until I can speak with any degree of experience in building guitars, you'll just have to settle for what little I can share on marketing.

The background - I was MD of an international marketing company for a while, only stopping when an opportunity with a salary too good to pass up presented itself at a time when I discovered I was expecting a second child. Slightly less steady money was more suited to my needs than sometimes greater, sometimes lesser dividends. Anyway back to the point.

During that time I was not only doing all the 'strategy' of marketing our own services, but also got invovled hands-on (out of choice) with 90% of our customers who came to us to market or sell their products to their percieved customer base.

There's a distinction which many people don't relise exists between 'Marketing' and 'Sales'. Many people tend to try to blend the two, and the results are never as satisfactory as when you realise that they are seperate processes with different objectives and different metrics for success.

In a nutshell - Marketing is all about getting an understanding of your market. Identifying who it is that will buy your products, then in this subset, identifying what it is they need. The final stage is identifying to these people how it is that your product(s) can meet this need.

Sales, on the other hand, is moving from this tacit understanding that you have something which your prospects need into a stage where your prospects reach into their pockets and place money on the table to satisfy their need.

It's important to understand the two different thought processes which go through your prospect's mind when they travel through this process, as if you taylor your actions to each in turn, you will get a lot more sales than if you try to jump through both hoops in one leap.

Now, this is particularly important for small companies (or luthiers). A company like Martin, Taylor, Takamine or any of the others who can make many many thousands of instruments can afford to introduce 'product lines' which are pretty much standardised, and be safe in the knowledge that given pretty much any dealer anyone who goes out to buy a guitar from will carry a selection of their instruments, there's a reasonable chance that they will hit upon a sale 'by chance'. That's all well and fine for a company of that size producing on that scale, but obviously, that's not the case for the samller company.

The samller company needs to a lot more astute in identifying their market, they can't really afford to have a huge selection of models and styles and go with a 'hope for the best' attitude (yes I know it's more complex than this, but to be honest, unless someone from martin or similar is likely to be looking at a post for large-scale marketing tips, I wont bore the rest of you all with the specifics). Instead they need to keep a close eye on the market they're selling in to. See what is making the money. There are several ways to do this. The first, and most simple, is to ask people. That's kind of what you do at guitar shows and the like. You speak to a lot of potential customers and gague what it is that's turning them on, find the features that are generating the 'buzz' and the ones which people are just ignoring.

Another way is to observe - that involves talking to each other. If Kevin Ryan told you was taking a lot of orders for his SJ type shape in a particular set of materials, and this was reflected in conversations with other builders, it would make sense to highlight this combination in your own website and adverts. You can't change a customer, you can only change yourself, after all.

Again, with guitar shows, you can learn not just from your own booth visitors, but see what other builders have done and what their visitors are talking about. If it were me there, I'd *definately* make a point of dropping questions like 'Great show this year - some amazing talent here, what have you seen in the other booths that's pressed your buttons?'

Ok so, I wont go on and on about marketing unless you guys really want more professional guidance which would be a lot more in-depth and cover a whole plethora of techniques (all the P's etc) which can help you better understand the market of custom-guitar buyers. I think you get the picture there. Find out what prospects as a 'whole' need, highlight your solutions to those needs in your public-facing areas, then talk more detail when you get a bite on the hook.

Marketing stops when you've got someone who feels they want what you offer. I often would tell my clients that marketing gets people to buy your product witout paying any money - you then move on to sales. In sales it's been said before and it's entirely correct, people buy people. If you have established a relationship of trust and people believe they have a need you can satiate, then it's only the relatively easy process of getting them to dig in their pockets which remains.

The key to sales is all about rapport. People are almost infinately more likely to buy something from someone they like than someone they dont. Bear in mind that by the time you get to this sales process, you've already got the sale in the bag so to speak. You've done your marketing to the person so you nkow that you offer something they feel that they need. Now the questions which are giong through their mind are all about how they can justify to their conscience buying your specific product from you and not buying the one which was slightly cheaper from the guy down the hall who didn't do quite such a good job of convincing them their need would be met, but may make the wife/husband back home happier. It's all a fairly complex balancing act of desire versus conscience.

So how do you tip that scale in your favour? Simple - understand the way these people are feeling and empathise. Again, there's plenty of ways to do this - I'll just offer two here for now to stop this post passing half a million words and sending all of you to sleep.

First is mirroring - very basic technique, and one which is not so well understood. Good mirroring is subtle, but very effective. In essense you're trying to copy certain elements of your customer's behaviour. The reason this works is all to do with evolutionary psychology. What you're doing is causing them to believe at a subconscious level that you are part of their 'family', or at least part of their social group. This plays on a very strong inherant feeling of trust which members of the same family or social group share implicitly.

When you are speaking to your prospect, listen to the speed at which they speak. If they spek thirteen to the dozen, speed up your rate of speaking to match slightly. Don't overdo it. You're not trying to do an impression of them, just make your natural voice a little more like theirs.

Similarly, if you find they use the expression 'noise box' instead of 'sound box', adopt the turn of phrase. It's not going to hurt so long as you both understand what you're referring to. Again, subtlety is key here. Don't ape every turn of phrase they use, just a few will do the trick.

Second tip would be the 'if...then' clauses. This one can be incredibly powerful.

So someone is saying - "I really like your OM, but I don't know if I can stretch to that price"

The thing to do here is establish what exactly is causing this reticence, so my question back would be "So what price could you stretch to?"

So they tell me "only $xxx"

You can then say "Ok, so what yo're saying is that IF I could make you an OM for $xxx, you'd buy it." Now you see, at this point they've got no choice but to agree, after all, what you're actually doing it repeating back to you something they've already told you.

Now you have a base price, and a tacit understanding of a purchase. Of course, likely as not you can't work to that price, so the trick then is to use a few other techniques to walk that price back up to a reasonable level for you, each time getting agreement from them at each stage. A lot of little 'Yes's are a lot easier to get than one big yes.

Again, I realise that I'm waffling here a little, and 90% of you are going to be bored by this encyclopaedic post. However, I do like to share knowledge when I can and it strikes me at least I have some relevant expereince here.

As I said before, if anyone is actually interested in learning more sales and marketing techniques, please don't hesitate to ask. I am practically a walking refernce book on this subject in much the same way running your own luthierie businesses has made this forum the definitive source of luthierie information on the web. :)

Ok sorry about the length of this post, I'll let you get back to your regular programming... :)

Dave,
   Thanks for offering such a generous and insightful overview of
marketing and sales for us. I understand the years and effort that it took
for you to gain all of what you just freely spilled out for us to benefit from
and I'll be the first to offer thanks in return.

   With the rise in numbers of small and solo builder shops in the past 15
years, it has made it necessary for all of us to create some sort of niche
for our guitars to sit in to be able to establish and maintain a customer
base.

    I've spoken with countless builders who were just cutting their teeth in
the marketplace and have been able to offer suggestions and advice from
only my experience and from what I've heard from other builders with
some time and a good number of instruments under their respective
belts.

    I've also taught lots of guitar building classes in my shops over the
years and have always enjoyed hearing about students of mine who
continue to build and even go on to start selling their instruments in the
same circles as many of us. There are a few who frequent the forums
online, but I haven't seen any here yet.

    I'm getting ready to line up four or five classes in the next year and will
save your post to offer to tham as great advice as they come. The biggest
change in my classes will be that I have taught as many as ten in a class
at a time, but I'll be taking only solo students from now on so we can
incorporate more design detail in their instruments.

Thanks again,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

   

I would agree with that. 1:1 relationships are a great way to sell the story and romance.

But I don't think it is a mutually exclusive decision.

We all have our own special recipe for marketing and branding. But... I think dealers serve two nice purposes for newer builders.

1. It puts you in the orbit of some "names". Having your guitars hang on the wall with _______'s, ______'s and __________'s (insert your favorite luthiers here) gives consumers a bit more comfort with you, and you begin to get associated (rightly or wrongly) with "people like this". That can help if nobody has ever heard of you. You get the luxury of drafting off both the brand of the store, and those builders who are "near" you.

and

2) It provides an outlet for spec guitars and guitars people don't/can't complete the sale on.


For me it is the mix of a strategy that sells some guitars direct, and some via dealer channels.

Trust me ... if you walked into a music store and saw a (real) D'Aquisto on the wall it would still be a pretty special experience even though you never actually got to meet him.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Hesh,
   That post will be stapled right to Dave's for my students. Great
offerings for anyone who's serious about making customers happy with
moe than just great great guitars.

   I've bought custome electric guitars from the best custome builders in
the world since the late 70s. When my friends in local bands were looking
at dropping $500.00 on their next Strat, I was scrambling and hustling to
scrape $1500.00 to $2000.00 together for a custom instrument.

   It was a multifaceted insanity in my part in that, even though I loved
and owned my share of Strats and Les Pauls back then, I could never get
to know the people behind their production. I was buying guitars from
guys in the New York and Boston areas who were relatively
unknown ....and unfortunately abandoned the craft for careers that could
feed their families as they grew. Ty Demeter was building some of the
best playing and best looking neck through Strat styles and Rick Newland
was doing what Paul Reed Smith became long before Paul was on the
scene with his dual humbucker loaded custome alternative to the Les
Paul.

   There were a few others that I bought from regularly and I went on to
own guitars from Tom Anderson, Paul Reed Smith's early efforts, Terry
McInturrf, John Suhr, Gene Baker, Gerard Melancon and others who still
produce what are the best electric guitars in the world. The custom thing
just had ahold of me.

   I've never purchased a high end custome acoustic guitar although I have
had opportunity to own two dozen or so as they've been traded to me by
customers toward orders placed in my shop. I love the work of the
builders in the acoustic circle today and I've been blessed to be able to
call a few freinds, but I just haven't gotten bit by the bug to own a quiver
full of fine acoustic guitars so they all were sold after my receiving them
as trades.

   I like knowing the person or people behind what i'm laying my money
out for when it comes to guitars. I think's it's a great testimony to their
dedication to the craft and the industry when you can call Santa Cruz or
Goodall and still have a decent chance of actually speaking with Rich
Hoover or Jim Goodall.

Thanks again,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

In the UK, you are talking of a very small number of people who are willing to pay thousands for a guitar. Probably something like 10% of all guitarists- perhaps not even that.

I know of many people who are horrified at the thought of paying more than A?300 ($600) for a guitar.

People are of a different mindset across the pond. We want something of quality for next to nothing. It's a tough market to crack, and one I am not EVEN considering entering into...

I guess we start building guitars over here because of the motivation of being able to build a solid wood guitar for a fraction of the price (under the grand false allusion that we can create something as flawless too.. )- whilst in the US, there is a very real possibility of making it into a successful business where the discerning man-with-money is willing to splash the cash for something special.

That type of mindset is growing slowly in the UK- but in the meantime, the factory built will remain as king.

Brock,
   That's absolutely true...the association and perception that is created by
a customer simply seeing a guitar built by a newer, upcoming builder on
the same wall as guitars built by those who have established themselves
as being the very best in the industry is invaluable. The only place to
achieve that is on the wall of a dealer's store so that needs to be given
deep consideration by any new builder.

   The cool thing about a small builder selling through dealers, though, is
that a potential customer can see a guitar in a dealer's store and give the
builder a call with any questions concerning it. Even though a sale may be
affected by a dealer a thousand miles away from the buider's shop, the
customer can still establish a relationship with the person who created
the guitar that they'll grow to love.

   We need to be careful to let newer builders in on a very important
aspect of a dealer/builder relationship, though, regarding those phone
calls and contact. If a potential customer ever calls and says that they'd
seen one of your guitars at your dealer's store and asks if they can place
an order for something identical or similar directly with you, it is your
responsibility...and just the right thing to do....to direct them back to that
dealer's store to have them place the order through your dealer. This way,
the dealer handles ALL of the phone time during the design and material
selection process (which we all know can be very time consuming) and
just drop to you and order with an itemized list of appointments and
materials desired by that customer.

   It allows you to build the custom orders that you've invested all of that
phone and design time in to receive the entire price of the guitar, but also
allows your dealer to fulfill their end of the relationship by investing that
phone and design time while receiving their 25% to 40% of the price.

   The reason that I share this is to save newer builders headaches and
resentments that can come later. I once had a dealer call me to say
nothing more than, "A guy is going to call you about an order...His name
is so and so. Be sure that I get my money from the sale since he found
out about you through my store. Thanks and goodbye."

   The guy did call and said that he'd heard of my guitars before, but
happened to be in a town close to my dealer on business and shot out to
play the ones they had on the wall. I proceeded to log more than 100
hours of phone time with the design and material selection process and
subsequent changes and questions and comments and just general
conversation with him. I enjoyed the conversation, but it was the dealer's
responsibility to log those hours in order to earn their share of the selling
price of the guitar.

    The dealer ended up being paid for time that I had to absorb without
ever paying even as much as the shipping for the guitar to their store so
my policy changed concerning these situations. If a person comes to me
who saw a guitar in a store. I'll direct them back to that dealer to place an
order. If the dealer drops the ball on holding up their end of things, the
time that is added to my investment in the prioject will be dedcuted from
their profit on those guitars at a rate of $50.00 per hour. We all need to
understand that there is more requirement than simply renting a hook on
a wall for dealers to sell your guitars. It is a mutually beneficial
relationship and needs to maintained by both parties involved.

    Most dealers are very consciencious and responsible in these areas, but
some don't understand the relationship and take advantage of the
builders. You need to take care of yourself as you enter these things.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

    

I think this was mentioned earlier, but the exposure of any person to a hand made guitar is work well done for everyone. I sell picture frames for a well established company and we do framing for museums, galleries, richie-riches etc.. Retail customers come in all the time saying that they want a normal gold frame, I don't want to spend a lot etc... And once I put down the hand gilded real gold leaf frame after working them through the lesser alternatives, no one can argue that it is much, much better. On the wall, that distinction is not always so obvious, even when the $150 per foot frame is right next to the $35 per foot frame. It is when it is right in front of them that all the little details that make it truly unique and something that a machine cannot do become obvious. Every time someone gets a chance to play a well made hand made guitar like it might be theirs is the same thing. We can sell the romance, but it only works because the product will sell itself if presented to the customer well(and presenting well is an art form in itself but...). I think the work of just blunt exposure to as many people as possible of being able to play a hand made guitar and experience the subtle but very real differences is just as important.

_________________
Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

@Kevin - thank you for your kind words and I hope those (very) basics are of some help to the new luthiers you're tutoring. If you would like anything further about anything more specific you think might arise at the opening of a new business, please feel free to PM me or just ask here. I have no doubt that I will end up with the better part of the bargain as I am bound to come up with many stupid questions when my build is underway (which I've discovered will be sooner than I had hoped as I finally removed the cloth from my ears and listened to Sam's suggestion about a UK luthier supplier, which I've discovered is about half an hour from me - good news for my build, bad news for my wallet...)

@Sam - I almost agree with you. Let me tell you why - my gut instinct is that you're 100% right. I can't tell you that many guitarists that I've met who would spend ?000's pounds on a custom guitar

BUT

the marketer in me tells me that 10% of tens of thousands of guitarists is still a lot of people, and add to that fact that many people who are investing in custom guitars are collectors more than players, and you begin to get a slightly rosier picture.

There's a certain irony here that many great great guitars I've played have been by luthiers I would never have heard of unless I'd happened to run across the guitar in a shop. There was an incredible guitar by a luther called Bill Dinsdale I played - just stunning, this thing had old growth BRW B/S and a high-grade Adi top. how much was it giong for? ?1200. That's just highway robbery, and it shows how much damage a lack of marketing can do to your profits. If Bill just got his name out there at the trade shows, made himself more visible, I have no doubt that he could be commanding two, three times that price for that guitar.

One thing perhaps worth remembering, and in fact one of the reasons collecting guitars actually makes some financial sense, is that theoretically, a guitar is a potentially appreciating asset. Spruce opens up, luthiers' reputations grow. Remind me how much that $3.75m martin cost when it was made in the 30s?.. You get the picture.

Now certainly that won't always be the case, not every luthier will get better, or more famous as time goes on, but part of the luthiers marketing strategy could definately be to demonstrate an understanding of the process.

So although we are making musical instruments, and that should always be in the forefront of a luthier's mind, right there next to it should be an understanding of what that musical instrument represents to their eventual owners, and furthermore it's important (as Hesh pointed out) that the client believe that although you don't sign your name W. Henderson, that's the direction you're heading and they better believe it. They buy your instrument and buy into your career.

Well, that's the way I'd look at it anyway. I think if you want to make a living from building guitars in the UK, you can, but you have to really think about it being a business, and you have to invest time and money in it just like you would a business.

All this being, of course, why I have no intention of ever selling any guitars I build, although I may give them away as I get going more. I've run a business before, 'nuff said. For me, this is something I'll do because I love guitars and ever since Martin began talking to me about it I've had a compulsion to make them. My day job will pay for it, and I have a heck of a lot of respect for those people who have managed to make a business out of this process, particularly as they've had to hold all the roles of marekting, production and logistics! It's a heck of a weight to hold on your shoulders...

[QUOTE=Dave Bamber] ... and I have a heck of a lot of respect for those people who have managed to make a business out of this process, particularly as they've had to hold all the roles of marekting, production and logistics! It's a heck of a weight to hold on your shoulders...[/QUOTE]

I too have repsect for these types of people, and I agree.

Dave, I work in an Arts and Crafts College, and considered joining the local Guild of Craftsmen to raise my profile as a crafts person, to get the commissions, blah blah blah...I might just join anyway so I can have some credence if I ever show any of the intruments I make...

However, these collegues I work alongside with have somewhat put me off the prospect- mainly because they have got into a "marketing trap"- spending most of their time traveling around the country to local craft fairs, teaching courses with a view to a high profile- and many of them complain because they don't have much time "being creative"...

Some people like the promotional side of things- however I have seen for myself how MUCH promotion you have to do in the Crafts business in the UK...

Great thread!

Dave, thanks for the enlightenment.

I think Hesh and Brock stress a very strong point on the romance and the "just for you" guitar . I would call it the "personalness" of having a guitar custom-built by someone you spend time with. And, I too believe the warm, "old workshop" look seen in so few ads, with the old hand tools and honey-colored workbenches can be a big hook for some of the custom-built market.

The points discussed here regarding the personal aspects of custom-building remind me of the wine market in the late 70s and early 80s. My co-workers in Silicon Valley would come in on Monday, excited about their weekend in the wine country, gushing about talking to the actual guy who grew the grapes for the cases of wine they bought, pictures of dim wine cellars with oak barrels full of a future-great-vintage Cabernet. These small private wineries stood in stark contrast to the mega-corporation-owned large production facilities whose 40,000 gallon stainless tanks sparkled in sterile, brightly-lit cellars. There were fans of both these facets of the wine industry - the small family-owned operations where you talk to the winemaker and the huge outfits owned by multi-national corporations. The bigger ones have gotten bigger, as did many of the small operations, and tiny new operations continue to appear.

I hope the market for custom-built guitars will do as well.

_________________
now known around here as Pat Foster
_________________
http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I was in a high end retailer on saturday after some surfing, looking in
their amp room, and realized my amps are better than some of the amps
they had in the room in terms of clarity and versatility. What I also
noticed was how much more legit the others seemed since they were both
in the room and next to a few others of the same brand. I'm not
interested in selling anything at this time, and I'm not interested in
becoming Mr. Amplifier. I have two on order right now only because I
appreciate the guys they'll be going to.

To what degree do you guys believe having more than one of your items
on display encourages a buyer?

Filipo...I wish I could inhabit your world where money doesn't matter too much.

Tell me, do you build guitars for a living? I was told by one of the moderators here that barely 30% of the members here consider themselves to be full time professional luthiers. I can tell you that if you depend on this craft to put food on the table, to shoe the kids, and to pay medical insurance, then this issue of sales and marketing is very important. Of course it's not the only thing, but it's immature to ignore the importance of keeping the doors open. This discussion is about our relative position in the overall world of guitars; it's not art vs. commerce; artiste vs. money grubbing capitalist pig. You can take the high road at your own peril.   It's dangerous up there...

I would be interested to know how many of the people who make up the group of medium to well known guitar makers get all of their income from building guitars. Many seem to make a decent number of guitars and do a number of other things on the side. I am thinking teaching(not guitar teaching), consulting, performing etc.. Is it possible to work by yourself, not act like a mini factory, and still be able to make guitars that people besides wealthy boomers can afford (and will play?). That to me is more of a quality of life issue, not a capitalist money grubbing issue. But then again, my friends are all anarchists. There is a middle ground, right? I do understand that if you go full time then you need to adopt a "real world" attitude toward income, warranties, and the small type. But in terms of the numbers of hand made guitars being sold, how many are being sold by people who do only that? I am not trying to make a point with this question, I am genuinely curious.

Thanks

_________________
Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Burton, not very many

A large number of folks here that are in the business of making and selling guitars have other sources of income. Most share this over time on the threads. There is a large number of folks I see passing through the world of lutherie here on the OLF. They enter the mix, have lots of questions, seek advice, all pretty well let you know it is their first and poof they are gone or rather replaced by another. Although alot of folks, mostly players might build a kit or give it a whirl, the percentages get smaller and smaller as you move up the food chain in this craft. There really is just a handful of full time Luthiers worldwide. I would say in the 100's, maybe more but it depends upon how you want to define "full time Luthier".

We have alot of different perspectives here on Marketing and Sales and I can agree with most all of them shared or better said, I understand from where they are coming from. I have a strategy, although I don't sell any of my guitars, but I do give them away. I have self imposed a number on myself as part of my strategy before I will sell any. This keeps me focused where I need to be focused at this time and that is on honing my skills, continuing to learn and become a better craftsman. That is first with me.

I know enough at this juncture that I will not be following the current model that most Luthiers in transition recently are following as relates to "commissions".

enought blabbing from me, good thread, thanks for sharing

Mike
White Oak, Texas

A friend of mine had one of these.
I doubt any one here can name this builder (it did make the blue book). If I remember they went for about 650.(mid 1990's)
Since he was a local boy I was hoping he would make it..

I think you must have a very clear vision of what you want to accomplish.

Then a very clear understanding of the many many things necessary to accomplish that goal.

Are you willing to change your approach in order to accomplish your goal.

I am unable to stop building for me.

I have the deepest respect for those able to balance it all and keep the business part successful without it destroying the joy of creating.

           Kirby

_________________
"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

Burton,

    My building of guitars was my sole source of income for more than 13
years and my income was good. I started doing my building classes, not
for the income alone, but because I received regular requests for them
and decided to provided that service to students. I took a little flack from
another well known builder about teaching competition for the rest of us,
but I said that the only thing educating new builders can do is to make
the rest of us strive more diligently to buil better guitars.

   If you really want to check your own knowledge of what you do...teach
it to someone else. You will learn alot about yourself as your students
learn alot about what it is that you do.

   It is possible for a solo builder to make a good living just from making
guitars, but he will have to work hard and be as efficient and stingy with
his time as possible in order to do it.

   There are a few in the industry who I believe have fallen into what you
call "money grubbers". When you play a guitar that is no better than those
costing as little as 1/8th the price, you know immediately that you have
been introduced to one of them. It's happened to me as customers of
mine brouht their new guitars from some of them into my shop.

   They walk in beaming with pride, not only that they're among the few
who own one, but also because they're among the few who can or will
afford one. It only takes a few minutes iof sitting around the living room
playing that over priced piece next to a few other guitars for them to
realize that the followed the crowd to see the "emperor's new clothes"
and fell prey to a common marketing goal....the generation of the
perception of much greater value than what is reasonable.

   There have been those who have used any or all of the typical measures
to boost the perception of the value of their guitars. One is claiming a
much deeper backlog than is really present....I've had one builder say he
had a 12 year backlog...only to find out later that he only wants build less
than a dozen guitars a year. That puts his backlog at less than half of that
time if he was working a reasonable number of hours a day or week. He
basically wants to go on vacation three weeks out of each month and
have his customers pay for it...more power to him.

    Another has pushed his pricing to the point of absurdity...but people
line up at his door to get guitars that they think have a value equal to the
number on the price tag....I've played them and have had a few people
sell them to trade up to other guitars. I lived in Manhatten for a long time
and the economic culture there is one that dictates the less than
intelligent mentality of "You get what you pay for." or, "If it costs more it
must be better."

   I had a potential customer call me a couple of years ago to get a quote
on a guitar. He explained that he was torn between me and another
builder who has built about 1/4 of the number of guitars that i've built. I
gave him an accurately quoted price and went back to work.

    He called a week later to let me know that he'd decided to go with the
other luthier and that the reason was that he had come in at almost
double my price on that same guitar. He then explained that he was of
the belief that he would get more of he paid more.

    He came back a year later with a deposit for the guitar that i'd quoted
him on. He had sold the guitar from the other builder only two weeks
after receiving it. The funny thing was that my price nearly doubled in
that year....imagine that. It is in my shop now and is due for completion
in summer or fall of 2009.

   I try to be fair with my pricing and have been taken advantage of at
times because of it. If a customer expresses the desire for a particular
back and side wood, but his price range doesn't accommodate it, I will
shop for a great deal on the wood and try to get it into his price range
rather than have him settle for his second choice. Sometimes it happens
and others it doesn't work out.

   Businesses exist for one reason...to make money....or they are hobbies.
It would be foolish to make the commitment to a full time lutherie effort
if the potential to carry the burden of running your home and feeding
your family isn't clearly evident. Even more foolish would be to stay in one
that fails to maintain that ability. Many times, builders begin selling their
guitars with no other goal than to recover their material costs and
possibly cover the cost of those for their next instrument. That is not a
business by any means, but a self supporting hobby.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

   

@Sam - Believe me, it's not just crafts where you have to market yourself very aggressively to get started. Any business is the exact same way, and yup - it seriously interferes with your time to spend doing the thing which you wanted to do in the first place, be that writing software or making guitars. Again, that's why I personally wouldn't choose to do it myself. I would also add, however, that the artistic flair you have put into your builds as I've seen them is something which can and will no doubt caputure buyer's attention, so you've already got a leg-up in that respect.

@burbank - there's a marketing 'name' for this phenomenon - it's called the 'fleamarket syndrome'. It's that old story of 'Hey, isn't that an original joe soap rug? Where'd you get it?' 'I got it from this little fleamarket in town...' cue smug grin. There is no doubt this works, but it's definately something which can only be effective reactively (when your prospect has sought you out) rather than proactively (when you seek your prospects).

@hesh - hehe, yes, this is starvation marketing. You actually see it more than you'd think in modern blue chip marketing companies. Think of the buzz lightyear dolls a few years back (the famous example). A lot of people wanted them, so production runs were held back, which meant they were difficult to get, which meant more people wanted them just to say they had them and on and on. However, this method can backfire if you don't live up to your hype. A good example of this backfiring was the recent Sony Playstation 3. Production was held back, there were very few units available upon launch, but the product didn't live up to it's hype for those who bought it. End result - it's now half the price it was. How well does this translate to custom guitars? Well, I guess the aforementioned W. Henderson doesn't do too badly from it.... ;)

@fmorelli - In the case of building guitars, as a fairly obsessinve guitar-player already, I can say I would not want my guitar building to be measured by the money I put in. However - *if* you want this to be a business, be prepared for that dollar figure to be king. Shaving just $10 off the cost of a build, if you're going 60 guitars a year means $600 more profit to you at the end of that year. That's $600 more that you can put in your kids college fund, or one less car maintenance bill to worry about paying for. Unfortunately I've never met a businessman who didn't care about money and how has lasted more than a year. A sad but true fact in today's modern world. :(

@Rick - as I metioned above I agree that in reality you're 110% right. In fact, I think yiou've probably got quite a lot you could share on this subject as you have done a very good job of being visible even to people who don't usually look at customs. Before I got into all of this, Renaissance was one of the few 'brands' of custom guitar I could have named if you'd asked me (along with Lowden, Omega, Borgouis, Ryan and Olsen probably) So whatever you're doing, marketing wise, I'd say you're doing it pretty well. I just hope I'll get a chance to try one of your guitars some day :)

I think this has been a fascinating thread so far, and I, personally, would be very interested to hear how people percieve themselves in the marketplace, as well as how they've heard their customers percieve them. Just out of curiosity really...

Ooh, I see Kevin just posted while I was writing my last reply...

@Kevin - what you say there is spot on. Percieved value is king to the general public. It doesn't matter if you are sourcing the same B/S set from the same billet from the same supplier as another guy, If the other guy says it cost him $1000 but they'll do it to the prospect for $1100, but in actual fact it costs $500 and you tell the same prospect that you will charge them $700 for it. Assuming the prospect is in that 'I want the best no matter the cost' frame of mind - they'll be easily taken in by the other guy.

I remember a clinet of ours back in the marekting business. They came to us looking to pre-sell a very difficult proposition to the oil and gas industry, and I gave them a pretty reasonable quote, which was fairly steep, but then I knew that they needed subject matter experts who would have to be personally mentored by me in sales techniques who could speak on equal terms without deference to contacts at the level of MD within multi-billion dollar companies.

Anyway - they called me back after a week and told me they were going to go with one of our competitors becuase they had quoted them considerably lower than us. Ah well, you win some you lose some right?

Wrong - three months later the client calls me and arranges a meeting. He tells me in confidence (hence why the lack of names here) that this other company had produced no actionable results at all in three months. I had to allow myself a moment of amusment where I said to the guy, all deadpan, "Well Mr. <name>, if I'd known those were the sorts of results you wanted we could have done it even cheaper than <competitors name>."

We both had a chuckle and he then gave us the business and after a very successful campaign became one of out key testimonial providers.

I learned a lesson there, though, about correctly identifying and remembering to emphasis USPs...

I can understand where you're coming from, Filippo. As a 26 year old out
of college, most of my peers around the United States are working more
than 50 hours a week. Their minds are active, busy, and restless with the
clutter of competing and distracted thoughts that can easily keep them
unbalanced and focussed on external matters. This is from a Business
Week article I keep on hand to remind me that my world view wants
something different:

Over 31% of college-educated male workers are regularly logging 50 or
more hours a week at work, up from 22% in 1980. About 40% of American
adults get less than seven hours of sleep on weekdays, up from 34% in
2001. Almost 60% of meals are rushed, and 34% of lunches are choked
down on the run. To avoid wasting time, we’re talking on our cell phones
while rushing to work, answering e-mails during conference calls, waking
up at 4 a.m. to call Europe, and generally multitasking our brains out.

- BusinessWeek, October 3, 2005

Modernity placed an emphasis on the “herculean labor” of intellectual
work (Kant) and asserted that every action must have meaning—that
being passive is senseless (Rauschning, Gesprach mit Hitler). It seems like
that's a culture you want to change, and I like that.

That said, I don't think you're using Rick's words fairly. His posts here
can be pretty sardonic, and I know from past bits of banter between the
two of you, you'd probably like the mental picture of him giving Meryl
Streep's character from The Devil Wears Prada a run for her money.
This is what I can tell you though---Meryl here took more than an hour
out of his day to hang with my sister and I in August, tour us around,
teach me something about fretwork, chat it up in his office, and get me in
with Jeff Traugott. He certainly isn't asking questions here either. He's
cruising around answering questions and changing how much excellence
we want to pull out of ourselves as we work (at least I've seen that
response in myself). He couldn't have been kinder to me.

Rick's mentioned that his son has special needs in the same posts he's
mentioned needing to make as much as he can. I'm working on a degree
in special education, and I wish I could let you know how few of the
parents I've been with don't want to opt out.

I do think his words and character speak for themselves, but I'm hearing
something different than I think you've heard. I appreciate your rejection
of a culture that's really taking over more of the United States; I'm also
glad your friend's been able to lead what seems like a good life that
blends his home life and occupation in a healthy way. I do wish you could
be more respectful that someone wants to approach their business
differently (although I think if you saw how Rick was interacting with his
clients on the MTV show, or with Henry Kaiser, I don't know that you'd see
much difference).

Thanks for reading.        &nbs p; 

Ummm, Fillipo, you kind of dodged my question.   Are you a professional luthier? I believe it is relevant to the issue at hand as it establishes a certain level of credibility in a discussion about marketing.   It's one thing to stand outside this arena and comment when it's not your ass on the line every day; it's quite another to hear from the pros in both guitar making and marketing as we've been doing here. It's very easy to go all high and mighty and critical of others whose work one does not do; it's another thing to have done this for decades and still be doing it as some here have done.