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World wide production of guitars exceeds 1,000,000 per year. Some approximate numbers:

Martin: Around 70,000 a year

Taylor: At least 50,000 a year

Fender in the US: At least 100,000 a year

When I visited the old Samick factory in Pusan, Korea, they were making 1,000 guitars a day...30,000 a month, and the plant had been designed to be able to triple that number. Economic factors brought about the moving of that factory to Indonesia.

Production see-saws back and forth between the percentage of electrics to acoustics with acoustics and acoustic electrics being slightly ahead these days.

It's a big world out there...

Big indeed!

Wow, I often have wondered what the world supply of guitars from factories is.

You don't even have Takamine in there either. I bet they are right up there with the 100,000 a year club too.

We are such a small part of the guitar world eh . No wonder most players don't know about custom built guitars.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

All those factory guitars are why there is a market for our level of instruments. The more inexpensive and decent beginner's and mid-level instruments that are out there, the more guitar players there will be. That increases the pool of potential customers for our stuff.

yep...

and it just makes you think that if you build a decent guitar you should be able to find a buyer for 20 or so units a year... huh?

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I was looking at the Takamine website and they have many $3,000+ priced retail that they sell.

There are many here who have 15-20 or so guitars under their belt who sell for less than this. I'm sure they are making as good a quality guitar and a better sounding guitar than those Takamine's.

The world is a very very big place indeed.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Bear in mind that a $3,000.00 Takamine costs a dealer no more than $1,500.00.   Can you do that?

One important thing to keep in mind is who the custom builder's customer is.  He/she is not the teenager in his bedroom wanting to be a rock star looking for a $99 guitar complete with case.   It is the person who had the disposable income to purchase a one-of-a-kind instrument, a piece of art if you will, or the musician who knows exactly what he wants and is willing to pay to get it made for him.  This person most likely already owns or has owned many big name factory instruments.  That is not what they are after, they are after something that they can own that nobody else will ever be able to get.  That is a custom instrument that is built to the customers specifications and visual taste.

You can go to a Sotheby's auction and spend millions of dollars on an original Van Gogh or you can go to K-mart and spend $9.99 for a framed copy of a Van Gogh.  Both are the same picture, both look nice on the wall, but only one of them is a piece of art.  That is what the custom guitar buyer is looking for.   They won't go to the big factorys for that, they look for the small guy building great instruments in his small shop or even their basement.  For clarification, I am using the word "art" to describe design, looks, playability, and tone.  Of course, there are exceptions..... pre-war Martins come to mind but that is a whole different animal.

I guess what I am trying to say is you are talking about two different
customer bases, the Ford customer versus the Rolls Royce customer.

After building a half dozen of these instruments and knowing how much work goes into one, I have to think that there are a lot of custom high end guitars being sold for a lot less money than they should be sold for. I have also learned that I have a huge amount of learning and practicing to do before I can ever think of selling one of my guitars for what I think a custom guitar should be sold for.



 

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] Bear in mind that a $3,000.00 Takamine costs a dealer no more than $1,500.00.   Can you do that?[/QUOTE]

I am not sure if this was in reference to my comment or not... but ...

I don't know about 50%... that is pretty steep for a custom builder but I think it makes good sense to approach the market understanding that to plug into the dealer market you need to consider 20 - 40% in dealer margin.

Some choose to go the route of dealers and other prefer to go direct.

I think the perception is that "you get to keep all the money when you go direct".. true enough, but it costs A LOT more to market with that approach, and you don't build your brand as quickly. I think dealers are a big help, but there are other ways to get the instruments sold.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Most Rolls drivers learned to drive in something more Ford-like. A Cortina, perhaps...

[QUOTE=davidmor] One important thing to keep in mind is who the custom builder's customer is.  He/she is not the teenager in his bedroom wanting to be a rock star looking for a $99 guitar complete with case.   It is the person who had the disposable income to purchase a one-of-a-kind instrument, a piece of art if you will, or the musician who knows exactly what he wants and is willing to pay to get it made for him.  This person most likely already owns or has owned many big name factory instruments.  That is not what they are after, they are after something that they can own that nobody else will ever be able to get.  That is a custom instrument that is built to the customers specifications and visual taste.  
[/QUOTE]

I have a theory about high end hobbies... golf, sailing, skiing, diving, playing acoustic guitar... whatever.

The customer we are all looking for is not starved for money. They are starved for time -- doctors, dentists, lawyers, executives, etc. When people can't be "doing" the thing they love they spend their time dreaming about it, and the best substitute for not being able to *do* the thing you love is to SPEND MONEY ON THE THING YOU LOVE.

Just look around this is prevalent with all major hobbies.

How many guys have a swanky country club membership, the very latest in high tech clubs, a $1,000 golf outfit and all the trimmings... step into the t-box and shank it into the trees on their first shot.

In some twisted way I understand this psychology.. I think it equally applies to amatuer guitar players. It keeps them close to their hobby even when they can't spend time playing.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] Most Rolls drivers learned to drive in something more Ford-like. A Cortina, perhaps...[/QUOTE]

Yeah... I was agreeing with you if that seemed unclear.   

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[quote=Rick Turner]Bear in mind that a $3,000.00 Takamine costs a dealer no more than $1,500.00.   Can you do that?[/quote]

Not calling this a profession. I can certainly make a guitar for much less and sell it for that to friends or family to get my building chops up, but of course you guys who are doing this to put food on the table would go hungry pretty quick if you gave away your instruments at such a price.

I have a friend who's the manager of a larger music store and indeed he's told me that mark up is very very high. There are of course a couple of streets most retail items go down between the manufacturer and the consumer and I bet that the wholesale price out the Takamine factory door is even less than $1500.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Ok, so we know there's over a million guitars being manufactured each year. What is the breakdown of retail sales price for these instruments? What percentage are acoustics? Where is the sales destination for them? What is the percentage of customers looking to spend $X.XX dollars on the acoustic instruments in the same range as what independent luthiers typically charge? In other words, what is the current size of the market in which independent luthiers are all competing against each other? My guess, is that less than 1/2% are in the market for instruments over $2000.
So what if you have 1000 luthiers competing for only 5000 customers world-wide annually? Now what is the breakdown of price levels that these customers are looking to spend? Are they looking to take possession of them this year, or just place an order and get on a multi-year waiting list? Are they already looking at independent luthiers, or only the manufacturers? Are they even aware of the independent luthiers? If not, what percentage of them are?

Those are the statistics that I would like to be aware of.

Brock mentioned something about independent luthiers having to compete with the custom shops of companies like C.F. Martin, and R. Taylor too, which have comparatively huge marketing machines behind them. Not to mention Collings, Huss & Dalton, and some of the other higher-end multi-builder shops. I think he's right there, and that puts the independent luthier at a distinct disadvantage unless they work with dealers who can provide more exposure to the market place.

How does the independent luthier turn a half-empty glass into a half-full glass? Yes, I know, that's a matter of perspective. But how do they turn potential to kinetic?

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] The customer we are all looking for is not starved for money. They are starved for time -- doctors, dentists, lawyers, executives, etc. When people can't be "doing" the thing they love they spend their time dreaming about it, and the best substitute for not being able to *do* the thing you love is to SPEND MONEY ON THE THING YOU LOVE....
In some twisted way I understand this psychology.. I think it equally applies to amatuer guitar players. It keeps them close to their hobby even when they can't spend time playing.
[/QUOTE] I disagree. Oh, I'm sure you can find plenty of people who fit this description. However.

I used to be a buyer. Buying several custom instruments is what got me into building in the first place. A combination of "how hard could it be" along with a good dose of "how cool".

I am strictly an amateur player. I don't enjoy playing for others, and I mostly play classical, though my first two custom purchases were steel string guitars. I play at a decently high level for classical, and am anything but a "wannabe." I just don't want to practice 5 hours a day to go and play milonga at some bah mitzvah.

I bought because these were great guitars, and because I am in a profession that leaves me enough loose change to pick up a guitar here and there without it hurting financially. It is truly a great experience to take a great guitar and play it, to hear the tones. Before guitar I played cello, and I could never build up the money to buy even a decent cello and bow - the kind you'd find in any middling orchestra. You can spend 5 figures just on the bow, and forget about the instrument. It takes serious lucre to get beyond the factory cello and bow. But with guitars you come up with 3K and can have a guitar built to your spec that sounds as good as anything else out there. Today is the golden age in guitars. Yes, the old martins are great, but the sounds SS makers are getting today are pretty fantastic in their own right, especially for fingerstyle.

Think if you were passionate about driving and could get a formula 1 car for 3K. Or loved airplanes and could get a jet for 3K. etc. If you are high middle income, you can buy the best guitars in the world. Who wouldn't do that if they could? It's a great priveledge and pleasure to use a great thing perfectly designed to do what it is supposed to, whether that thing is a cello, guitar, NASCAR car, motorcyle, or whatever.

No, none of us need that great guitar. But since it is so cheap, why not get one or more? I still get tremendous pleasure from playing; don't disparage my pleasure because I am not on a stage trying to project a note into the last row. Don't equate it to merely spending money. My first custom instrument came dear, the later ones less so. It doesn't mean that I don't appreciate what I bought, or still enjoy them everyday (though I do tend to play my own creations now).

[QUOTE=rlabbe] I disagree. Oh, I'm sure you can find plenty of people who fit this description. However.

I am strictly an amateur player. I don't enjoy playing for others, and I mostly play classical, though my first two custom purchases were steel string guitars. I play at a decently high level for classical, and am anything but a "wannabe." I just don't want to practice 5 hours a day to go and play milonga at some bah mitzvah.

I bought because these were great guitars, and because I am in a profession that leaves me enough loose change to pick up a guitar here and there without it hurting financially.

[/QUOTE]

I didn't mean to imply these buyers/players "suck" and shouldn't be buying these guitars. Perhaps the golf analogy gave that impression....

Some amatuer players are very good. Certainly good enough to do it professionally... but let's face it... if you are pulling down a nice six figure income it is pretty tough to give that up to play gigs every night of the week.

For sure people should follow their dream and all that, but for the vast majority that isn't practical.

You can disagree if you like, but using yourself as a datapoint of one is not a sufficently large sample size.      I think if a decent study was done we would find a lot of folks who buy guitars because they are simply infected with "the bug" and can't play as much as they would like.

I am really not making a value judgement ... I am merely pointing out a consumer behavior and how it effects our market.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Don Williams] Ok, so we know there's over a million guitars being manufactured each year. What is the breakdown of retail sales price for these instruments? What percentage are acoustics? Where is the sales destination for them? What is the percentage of customers looking to spend $X.XX dollars on the acoustic instruments in the same range as what independent luthiers typically charge? In other words, what is the current size of the market in which independent luthiers are all competing against each other? My guess, is that less than 1/2% are in the market for instruments over $2000.
So what if you have 1000 luthiers competing for only 5000 customers world-wide annually? Now what is the breakdown of price levels that these customers are looking to spend? Are they looking to take possession of them this year, or just place an order and get on a multi-year waiting list? Are they already looking at independent luthiers, or only the manufacturers? Are they even aware of the independent luthiers? If not, what percentage of them are?

Those are the statistics that I would like to be aware of.

Brock mentioned something about independent luthiers having to compete with the custom shops of companies like C.F. Martin, and R. Taylor too, which have comparatively huge marketing machines behind them. Not to mention Collings, Huss & Dalton, and some of the other higher-end multi-builder shops. I think he's right there, and that puts the independent luthier at a distinct disadvantage unless they work with dealers who can provide more exposure to the market place.

How does the independent luthier turn a half-empty glass into a half-full glass? Yes, I know, that's a matter of perspective. But how do they turn potential to kinetic?


[/QUOTE]


Well... I guess what I mean by the comment about martin, gibson, taylor etc. is multi fold.

1) Most players have no idea we are out here... they wander into guitar center not knowing a custom guitar is within the world of possibilities for them... so we have no opportunity to win these customer without educating them

2) Some know we are out here, but are familiar with the "big names" Ryan, Olson, Traugott, Walker and other guys in the big money range. Therefore they think "custom guitars are way out of my league" and go to guitar center to buy something more suited to the masses.

3) There are those who do know that we exist, may even know that we have guitars in their price range, but are concerned that we might not be around in 3, 5, 10, 20 years. This translates to worries about warranty and worries about how the market value of their instrument will be affected down the road since "nobody has ever heard of this guy"


I simply refuse to believe that the luthier market is a 0 sum game. That was essentially one of the main points of Judy's recent ASIA article. I think our best opportunity is to find the guy/gal who is ready to go out and plunk down the cash for a high end martin, taylor, or gibson and woo them to the romance of having a custom guitar built exclusively for them. We have a **GREAT** story to sell -- if we make nice guitars it really shouldn't be that tough to find buyers for everything you can realistically make.

I think the glass is way more than half full.. I think it is pouring over the top, across the floor and out the door. Opportunity is everywhere.

I suspect much of the tightening in the market that some seem to be concerned with is the market is getting a little bit more sophisticated and the marketing tactics of yesterday don't work as well today.

but I am convinced (and nobody is going to make me believe otherwise...) that if you are a smart, creative marketer and make nice guitars that you can't find a market for 20 guitars a year.

I just do not think we are killing each other for business.

Rick has pointed out... we are not even a spec on world wide consumption. It is just nuts to think that we can't all exist and fourish.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

QUOTE:
I have a theory about high end hobbies... golf, sailing, skiing, diving, playing acoustic guitar... whatever.

The customer we are all looking for is not starved for money. They are starved for time -- doctors, dentists, lawyers, executives, etc. When people can't be "doing" the thing they love they spend their time dreaming about it, and the best substitute for not being able to *do* the thing you love is to SPEND MONEY ON THE THING YOU LOVE.
QUOTE:

I think you're right on with this Brock...every so often a guy or girl comes along who has scratched and saved or cashed in a bond gramma bought her to buy a custom instrument but that's the exception in my experience...more often than not the folks I sell to could just toss the money out the window on the way to my shop and not miss it...I lost a commission on a guitar last year when the customer got spooked because I wasn't charging him ENOUGH!

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] [



I simply refuse to believe that the luthier market is a 0 sum game. That was essentially one of the main points of Judy's recent ASIA article. I think our best opportunity is to find the guy/gal who is ready to go out and plunk down the cash for a high end martin, taylor, or gibson and woo them to the romance of having a custom guitar built exclusively for them. We have a **GREAT** story to sell -- if we make nice guitars it really shouldn't be that tough to find buyers for everything you can realistically make.



I think the glass is way more than half full.. I think it is pouring over the top, across the floor and out the door. Opportunity is everywhere.



I suspect much of the tightening in the market that some seem to be concerned with is the market is getting a little bit more sophisticated and the marketing tactics of yesterday don't work as well today.



but I am convinced (and nobody is going to make me believe otherwise...) that if you are a smart, creative marketer and make nice guitars that you can't find a market for 20 guitars a year.



I just do not think we are killing each other for business.



Rick has pointed out... we are not even a spec on world wide consumption. It is just nuts to think that we can't all exist and fourish.







[/QUOTE]

This is exactly what I was trying to say in my first post.  Custom builders should have the mindset that they aren't competing with the big guitar factories.  Their customer base is different.  The big boys are building guitars for the masses, the small custom builder is building for individuals.  There are a lot of buyers out there that buy from the big names simply because they either don't know that custom builders exist, or they think it will be way out of their budget.  They need to be educated that they can get a custom instrument, made specifically for them for a price that is in the same ballpark as a mid-priced Martin. A bit of that 'romance' thing that Brock mentioned can't hurt either!

It costs money to market guitars, especially when you get past the first dozen or so.   You have to "do" Healdsburg several times just to get recognized, then you have to do Montreal or Newport or one or more of the big vintage guitar shows. You have to advertise in AG or VG or FB Journal. You may have to give up a piece of the retail pie...25% to 40%...to a dealer. Don't think you can under-price Martin or Taylor.   Don't think you can make it on selling a $3,000.00 guitar a month; you'll die on the vine. Learn to build unique and useful instruments that the biggies aren't making. Take a very close look at the work of companies like Santa Cruz, Collings, Goodall, and know that their founders were once like most of us here. You have to be able to work at that level of craftsmanship and achieve that level of tone at an equal price point to be relevant.   Or you have to build something they don't, but build it that well.

I agree completely.

It takes a lot of work to build brand... and it costs a lot of money and mental energy. Every bit as much as producing a fine product.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Your pal has gone the "guerilla marketing" direction. So he didn't spend big money; instead he spent big time, and that was a lifestyle choice.   But time is money, and every hour he spent showing his guitars was an hour he wasn't in the shop.   There's no getting around it.   You have to sell what you make, or you pay someone else to do it.

I have known some really great luthiers who couldn't give water to a man in the desert dying of thirst. Sales takes a personality type, and not all luthiers have "it". I've seen the "aw shucks" attitude cost a luthier a good $2,000.00 in lost potential profit.

If you can make it as a local luthier, more power to you, but still, every sale costs time away from the workbench, and there's no getting around that.   You have to build that cost into your price.

Rick Turner wrote:
"....every sale costs time away from the workbench, and there's no getting around that. You have to build that cost into your price."

Amen.

A lot of my publicity is through newsgroups, 'boards, and mailing lists on line. I've spent a lot of time convincing people that I know what I'm talking about, and it gets me orders. But it takes time, both the daily, on-line sort of time, and the years you have to spend coming back and answering the same questions over an over agian.

I was complaining once about the fact that I spend several hours a day on line. One of my students, who worked for a big consumer electroncs company, pointed out that a third of the people in his firm were in marketing. So, if you spend a third of your time selling stuff, that's not out out of line.

And here you all thought I was doing _you_ favors! ;)

Rick,
   I just thought I'd mention that when I was at Martin back in the early
90s, they were producing more than 350 guitars a day....that's over
90,000 a year.

   The last numbers I got from friends who still work there in different
management capacities were about 500 a day now so they're looking,
more realistically at about 130,000 a year....give or take a few.

    That's a alot of guitars, but still not nearly what Takamine does or what
is put out by the huge Cort factories in South Korea and Indonesia. I've
heard from a friend who is a designer at the original Cort factory in
Incheon that they produce between 250,000 and 300,000 acoustic
instruments a year.

   Wow! That's alot of guitars!

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

I visited Cort on the same trip I was at Samick.   Yep...lot's o' guitars...that's what's driving the price of Indian rosewood up...