Official Luthiers Forum!

I tried to write a nice paragraph of disclaimers, but that hasn't worked. So please just assume that I wrote some nice intro paragraph about treating each other kindly and respectfully and all that other important stuff our mom's taught us.

So with that said, I'll just come out and say it.

In order to help one another, praise is encouraging, but not often helpful. How do we tell a fellow builder that his building, either fit/finish or playability and sound need improving? I know that I'd rather hear it from another builder than a customer.   Also, some of us are builders and don't play that well or have as good of an ear as someone that has played a long time. We are great encouragement, but we could be so much more.
How should we move on to be more than just cheerleaders, or should we just stay there?

This question is prompted by playing another's guitar that I thought looked good, but didn't sound very good. (I'll let you all wonder if it is you, but I will not tell you who it is, so don't ask.    )

So, do we give each other permission to critique or work, or should we ask for a critique or permission to critique?

BTW - If you notice something on a guitar of mine that could use improvement, please let me know - PM/email/or publicly on a thread. I would rather hear it from you than a customer. Thanks!

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Be honest, Open with
"Please take this as helpful and not as disrespectful"

or end with

"I mention this with the intent to help you improve your product"

Never say things like "that is the worst..." and so forth

Helpful criticism never demeans but is direct and to the point, is never personally critical but rather product specific.

you can spend a lot of time with opening apologies and explanations but if the person is touche they are touche. Just have good intent is the best you can do.

You know this is a good question.

When you are face to face with someone it is easy to tell their intent by their demeanor. When written words is all you have to go but it is easy to misinterprate the intent.

I know I am often direct. I try to write the same words I would speak if in person. Those that know me personally know I am easy going. but to know me only by my written word you would likely find me a bit on the rough side. It is not that any of the words are different. It is that you can not see my face, posture or hear the inflection of my voice.

In this sort of situation I usually refrain unless the person specifically asks for honest criticism. Not everyone handles criticism well, it just depends on your personality. I personally think criticism is miles more valuable than praise, though praise is nice.

I think the thing is to keep it friendly and tactful, but to not water it down with a million disclaimers or vague positives. Suggestions for how to do it next time or references for study would be helpful, too.

My problem is I already know enough of my own mistakes to start worrying about the ones I don't notice yet. :)

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

You know this is a good question.

When you are face to face with someone it is easy to tell their intent by their demeanor. When written words is all you have to go by it is easy to misinterprate the intent.

I know I am often direct. I try to write the same words I would speak if in person. Those that know me personally know I am easy going. but to know me only by my written word you would likely find me a bit on the rough side. It is not that any of the words are different. It is that you can not see my face, posture or hear the inflection of my voice.

Steve,
There is an element of truth here.

I think most know if their work is up to speed or not.

It's pretty obvious if someone is hacking together a guitar just for fun, or taking serious pains to near perfection. We see both on here all the time.

While I whince when someone shows meager skills, I usually try to say something nice. I took issue recently with the way someone came onto the forum recently and regretted doing so. So, yeah, there is something to this "being nice rule on the OLF". It's counter-productive to not be nice.

There is probably a companion rule to the Be nice Rule, it's the Just walk away Rule.   

I got a kick seeing that Kent Everett offers a guitar critique for just $85. I don't know if that comes with a box of Kleenex or not? But I be you could learn some things from one of his critiques.

You hit the nail on the head. It's probably all right to offer constructive criticism if it's requested in the thread. Good topic, thanks for bringing it up Steve.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Great subject Steve. I have offered constructive criticism on the OLF several times and it has always been met with either silence or a defensive attitude. I think the cheerleading and lack of acceptance of criticism will unfortuneately keep the OLF in the realms of a hobby website. Also, the cheerleading ends up making certain threads extremely long and completely lacking in content. There is much room for improvement.

Let's See.

I know a luthier or two who sent guitars around for folks to try. Judgement by jury of peers, what could you learn from that? Wow.

We should set something like this up.

The Violin Society of America used to jury violins at their meets. Since I've never been to either of the two guitar conventions, I don't know if they do the same?

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

This is where being a part of a group like NEL or LINT etc. is really helpful, because pretty much any one of us who brings a new instrument to be looked at is looking for feedback. I'm not the greatest builder on the planet, but I can usually convey something to a fellow builder, tempering the thing that needs improving with encouragement about things that I'm seeing that they are doing well. We're spoiled with the NEL group, because there are so many really good builders that participate, and some with some great imagination and a real sense of style and innovation. My take is that if they're asking, be honest and let them know what you think, and if you think it's lacking somewhere, be prepared to offer suggestions as to how they can improve the shortcoming. But...if you're going to offer constructive criticism, be able to speak from a place where your own skills can truly represent the words you speak. There are things I'm pretty good at, but things I'm not. I try to stick to talking about stuff that I think I have a clue about.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

All the time I have been here I have never seen a squabble over a critique of a product.

All the squabbles we have ran into have been on opinions. I think that is because opinions are personal thoughts and are often dependent on philosophy. People don't give up or change philosophy easy. But I believe most of us are pretty open minded when it comes to product critique.

Now product critique is quite different than acknowledging an accomplishment. Whether it is your first or you 50th guitar posting a picture to say here is my latest is not an open invitation to critique on an open forum. In a case like that a pm to the poster would be in order to see if they are open at this time to a helpful critique

I agree that harsh criticism (especially for a newbie) is not useful. But where is the value in endless, positive posts of an obviously flawed piece of work?

[quote=BarryDaniels]But where is the value in endless, positive posts of an obviously flawed piece of work?[/quote]
/\ agreed.

One important thing I have learned in the recent crossover to "Artist" to "Craftsman" is that Art is difficult to critique, because it is an expression of the self, but Craft needs critique because it requires a level of workmanship and quality to function.

The more i learn, the more I realise I don't know.

I'll post pics here because I TRUST you all.

compared to some of the stuff here my builds can be pretty rough.

90% of them are for me anyway and 100% of them are experimental and a bit off the wall.

If someone says "I don't like it" then, that's OK, I don't like brussels sprouts, but I don't hate every one who grows them!!

Some people are well known for their blunt answers and lact of tact with idiots (like me) and you know what? the person who I respect most on the internet is a pro who has been there, done that and has more experience of the experimental than I will ever DREAM of..... and he as told me on a number of occasions, on a number of different fora that what I am trying is a waste of time and doomed to failure.

and I can't think of a time that, in the cool light of day, once the wounds in my pride were licked, he wasn't exactly spot on with his critique.

(thanks Rick!!)

Anyone who posts in a public forum should expect to get honest critique, but I'll certainly always try to be constructive....... (thats a nice desk you've leant the guitar against.....)

there is a Christian songwriters forum where I'm a mod and they have a policy on critique submissions.

in the title of the thread, you post HOW you want it critiqued.

1 is for "my own use"
2 is for "any suggestions?"
3 is "gloves off, tell me straight"

it works well......

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My soundclick xx luthier blog xx luthier soundclick

Echoing what others have written here, I try to read into a post of a newly completed guitar whether the poster is looking for strokes, like "Here's my first!" or, like in a recent post asking for critiques of a top. Generally I stay on the positive side unless someone specifically asks, "What should I do here?"

I like the strokes just as much as the next builder, and this forum is sure generous that way, but in truth, I don't learn anything. Where I learn is when I hand a guitar to a perceptive player or builder and ask, "What do you think? Please, tear it apart. What's wrong, what could be done better?" "It's weak in the mids, or the neck is floppy, the bass is muddy" That's when I learn, and only in that context would I comment on an area in need of improvement in someone else's work.

Unfortunately, the skills in guitar building that I need help with are not readily evaluated in pictures on the web. Pictures will show that my bindings aren't tight, or if the pores aren't filled and I can evaluate those on my own. But I can't post anything that would convey for example, something in the tone that's lacking, or a small detail about playability so I think the chances are slim for a valuable critique over the web of those more subjective areas of building.

OK,end of ramble.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Lots of good points have been made here.
Thanks, everybody.
The original post dealt with critiques 'in person'- great stuff- and I just wanted to add a few words about the online display of guitars here at the OLF.

For me, the most important aspects of a guitar are its sound and playability. Neither can be effectively observed in an online forum (sound clips are nice, but really reflect the recording technique as well as the guitar).

It seems to me that the result here on the OLF is that we are applauding the visible workmanship and 'bling' qualities of our instruments. Producing anything 'guitar-like' from scratch is an accomplishment in itself, and deserving of compliments in any case.

As long as we remember the limitations of online 'critiques' (ie don't go rushing out to become professional 'luthiers' on the basis of nice words here at the OLF), this can all be a pleasant and harmless diversion.
To find out how we're really doing, we have to be brave enough to put our instruments in the hands of somebody who has both the expertise (and time) to really evaluate our work and the skill of 'straight talk' (hopefully without abuse)!

Cheers

John

Pat and I were typing at the same time, and he said it better!
Thanks, Pat!

John

I think if someone posts a picture and asks for critical feedback, then, give it to them.  I certainly want to get it if I'm looking for it.  I can agree or disagree, and I can see it in whatever light I choose, but without critiques how do we improve at our craft.  It is how we learn - yes from our own mistakes, and the things we catch ourselves, but also from more experienced individuals, who know what looks right and what sounds good (although there are, surely, differences there).  I know when I posted my prototype headstock, I got a couple of comments that really helped me.  I don't recall off the top of my head who, but someone told me it looked stoop shouldered.  It was a good observation.  It made me increase the height of the center hump, and I think it helped the overall look a lot.  Still probably not perfect, but much more pleasing to the eye.  It was good criticism, even if I had spent hours on the other design (just kidding!).  The same was true on the rosette thread.  I wanted real feed-back.  I made some changes from what I got too.  I didn't agree with all, but was not offended by any either.  So if I ask for honest feed-back or critique, that is what I want.  You don't have to call me names though!  

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Berry,
The value is the enjoyment of sharing our craft with each other. Now that in its self does not help the individual notice the flaws un-obvious to them at the time. but it does tend to bring them back to the forum and ask questions, and the myriad of answers we give to those questions does impart knowledge.

This forum is way more than place for use to critique each others work. The real intent of this forum is a place for us to meat and discuss our craft. Some times that includes critical input. if you wish to point out something then do it. Do it in good faith and don't get personal about it.

The only issues that have lead to problems is when things became a challenge. Like I said before I can not recall a single problem where someone brought up and issue with a guitar. They have all been over challenges to beliefs.

Maybe we should set up a critique page where if you are interested you can submit work for critical review. Hey I think that is a great idea. Why didn't I think of that Oh I did

    I agree that criticism from professional peers is much more
constructive that that from customers or players who may know what they
want to hear or see personally, but really don't have the education in
lutherie to offer such productive input.

   I'm sure those of you who attend the major shows have gotten to see
and perhaps fall prey to some of the self appointed "critics of everyone
else's work". I've heard from several builders who attend the shows call
them "the guitar police" or the "three blind mice" or the "emperors with
the new clothes" after being attacked, harshly reviewed or even outwadly
insulted by them as they make their rounds offering to listen to the
builder play and then critique their guitar's tone. They've established
somewhat of a following of unknowing players who will listen to them for
no other reason than they don't know any better.

    The funny thing is that I've seen the work of most of the folks these
guys criticize. Well....actually...the really funny thing is that i've seen the
work of some of the self appointed authorities on what constitutes great
tone and great workmanship.....and they fall far short in quality on both
fronts when compared to those they are criticizing.

    I recently had a long phone conversation with one of my favorite
people on the planet who just happens to be one of my favorite guitar
builders as well. They told me how one of the "emperors" asked that they
play the guitar that would best represent their tone and a detailed critique
would be given in return.

    They listened for a minute and then flipped the guitar around in a
effort to look like he had a clue as to what he was looking at and said,
"You show real potential tonally with your guitars." I almost blew my milk
out of my nose when I heard this because I've seen and played the work
of both.

    The builder who received the hallowed critique from one of the self
proclaimed all knowing authorities on all things lutherie who browse the
show floors looking for likely victims to their inconsiderate and
unprofessional offerings is revered among many of us who have been
doing this for some time and have many guitars under our respective
belts.

    On the other hand, I've played guitars from the critic and have
repeatedly tried to give him the benefit of the doubt when looking at
them by thinking (to myself), "Maybe he was having a bad day." or "Maybe
he was in a real hurry to get that done." or even, "Maybe he was on some
strong medication when he worked on this." I'd never say any of them to
the owners of the guitars that I was looking at, but offered a simple, "I'm
glad you got the guitar you wanted."

   His work is sloppy, rushed, and, quite honestly, of an entry level quality
in many respects and his tone was nothing to boast about in any case,
but he calls himself one of the finest builders in the world and readily
spews quick cuts and dismissal for the work of builders much more well
received and much more experienced and skillful in the craft than he is.



    My point is that, as we look to grow and encourage one another in the
craft of lutherie and professionally as we give constructive criticism to
one another, let it be with sincere consideration and at least a resonable
amount of professionalism. Remember also, to always consider your own
work and its quality in build and tone honestly as you offer any critique
for that of someone else.

    Don't be like these guys at the shows who prowl the floor knocking
things over with the huge log protruding from their eye as they look to
pick the tiny splinter from the eye os their peers or competitors. They
don't even realize how foolish they look by doing so, but nobody wants to
come out and tell them for fear of being the next in line for one of their
self serving and self promoting and possibly damaging reviews.

   Be nice...be honest...and choose your venue for sharing anything
carefully. Forums may be the right place for certain points to be made,
but many should be conveyed via email, personal message or through a
friendly phone call to avoid the shortcomings of communicating in type.

     We're a pretty friendly and approachable bunch who are open to
anything that might help us grow and make a better instrument for our
customers.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

How many of you have ever taken a creative writing class? (I flunked mine by the way )

In the class we not only wrote but also critiqued, and were graded on each. The funny thing is that when scores were looked at as a composite a larger portion (much larger) scored poorly on their critiques than on their writing. There is a reason for this. Human nature is such that when we look critical at others work we often loose track of our tact and become know it alls.

being a critic is one of the hardest things to do and maintain humility.

Just food for thought.

In my real example above, I said nothing, because I was not asked. All I could think was that the lack of tone was remarkable. This builder should be made aware so that he/she can improve. I do not feel that I had the right to offer that opinion, yet I am certain of my judgement. I am sure that others would agree with me because I am first of all a player of 30+ years, and a builder for only 3 years.

We should be more aggressive in asking for honest feedback. We could learn so much from each other.

My favorite responses so far -
[QUOTE=Kevin Gallagher].....Don't be like these guys at the shows who prowl the floor knocking things over with the huge log protruding from their eye as they look to pick the tiny splinter from the eye of their peers or competitors. They don't even realize how foolish they look by doing so, but nobody wants to
come out and tell them for fear of being the next in line for one of their self serving and self promoting and possibly damaging reviews.

   Be nice...be honest...and choose your venue for sharing anything carefully. Forums may be the right place for certain points to be made, but many should be conveyed via email, personal message or through a
friendly phone call to avoid the shortcomings of communicating in type.

     We're a pretty friendly and approachable bunch who are open to anything that might help us grow and make a better instrument for our customers......
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] ....meet as often as you can with other luthiers and let them critique your work honestly, completely, and in a comfortable one-on-one setting. .....[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=JohnAbercrombie] For me, the most important aspects of a guitar are its sound and playability. Neither can be effectively observed in an online forum [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Bruce Dickey] .....I know a luthier or two who sent guitars around for folks to try. Judgement by jury of peers, what could you learn from that? Wow.

We should set something like this up.......[/QUOTE]

        Yes we should!

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

You got that right, just ask my wife.  

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars