Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi folks.
I'm wondering what would cause a jointed back to warp across 2 planes.
Warped across the grain and also warped along the length of the annular growth rings.

Here's the story:
I have four sets of backs and sides sets.
All jointed in similar humidity/heat conditions.
One set of EIR and 3 sets of Spanish Cypress.
We're in a heatwave at the moment, but all of the sets I have were jointed well beore that, and none of them, before today, had been worked further than jointing them.
The EIR set has fared perfectly well.
Two sets of Spanish cypress have fared well.
The third set of spanish cypress has warped like a vinyl record thats been left in the sun, and is progressively getting worse.

It looked really odd when it arrived from the supplier.
Odd colour and odd looking grain pattern, and kind of cheap/nasy looking.
Yet its supposed to be his best quality spanish cypress.
I'm wondering why the three other back and sides sets handled the heat and humidity conditions perfectly well, while the 4th set has warped so much.
Despite having been stored in the same conditions and jointed in the same conditions.
The warped back hasn't cracked.
None of them have cracked actually.
In fact I've gone so far as to clamp the warped set flat on the work bench and it clamps perfectly flat without any cracking or complaints.
I'm actually really surprised at how much i can flex it without it cracking or making odd sounds as if threatening to crack.

Then it springs back to its warped shape as soon as i unclamp it.
I think the only way I'm going to get it to go flat again is to weight it down on the work bench on the next hot day and see what it does.
As it stands its pretty much a loss, but if i can recover it I'd really like that since it was quite expensive.
The supplier i got it from, who i won't name, supplied me once with a set of Monterey Cypress back and sides.
His Montery cypress was going for 40 dollars for a back and sides set.
Wereas I'd ordered spanish Cypress, which, from memory, he charged me 280 dollars for.
He charged me for spanish cypress but sent me monterey, and I'm absolutely convinced it was deliberate because there was a bit of craftwork in his dealings with me over that particular set, and i was inexperienced.
He didn't specify the species on his reciept, where he usually does.
He even rang me to rave about how great it was, and it was a bit out of the ordinary.
So I think he pulled a fast one.
I never complained when the penny finally dropped.
I susected that it wasn't what i ordered but i took him on his word and worked the timber before realising and then I couldn't return it.
Luckily it made a great guitar, but the point was that it was more than just a wee bit dishonest, and i dislike people trying to put one over me.

The warped set of back and sides he sent me cost me 350 dollars.
I've had to replace it with an absloutely gorgeous set from elsewhere, at a fraction of the cost.
I replaced it before it warped actually because it was so ugly after i had begun working it.
The replacement set is alot more stable prettier to look at, a better grain structure and colour and smells better.

I'm a bit concerned that he's been aware that its had problems before he sent it to me.
He's told me stories of tricks that he does to fool customers, so now i question his honesty.

This time i don't know whether to be cranky or whether I've just had bad luck.

Anyhow any clues as to why a piece of timber would warp like that whereas the others are fine?
Perhaps it hasn't been seasoned properly?
And does anyone know how it could be recovered?

cheers,
Claire

   My totaly amateur opinion would be , most definatly changes in the moisture content of the wood is causing the potatoe chip effect. 

   you mentioned a heat wave, but more important is the relative himidity , since dried  wood will take on moisture from the surrounding air , not equal too , but in relation to the relative humidity , if the wood is drier than the surrounding air .

 most serious guitar builders have a special storage/ work area , in which they maintain a constant relative humidity , usualy between   %40- %55 humidity ( which over time will level out the moisture content of the wood to %7- % 12 moisture content), depending on local relative humidity levels ,and builders preferences .

 being in new york, right now I have a dehimudifier running in my storage room , in the winter I will need to moisturize the area.

 if you return your wood to the state of proper relative humidity , the  M C  should return to an acceptable state , and the wood should flatten out again .  Jody

  My post above assumed you have wood that was cut and sawed for lutherie, being in construction , I have notice dimensional lumber ( 2x4's  etc) milled while green , and not properly dried will take on some serious distortion , such as twisting, bowing , and checking     (  cracks) as it dries. Jody

in view of your description of the vendors behavior i wonder at your continued dealing with him.

but as to your immediate problem. you have not described the rh conditions under which the wood was stored, and that to me is the critical issue in the analysis of a problem like this.

it sounds as though the wood has gone through rh variations.

Claire, you might try a product called Super Soft. It has been discussed here before as being use for aid in bending. But it's original purpose is to relax veneers. So my guess is that if you wet it with SS and clamp it flat, once dry it should be dead flat.
Now in regards to your vendor: while I appreciate your candor of keeping the name under wraps, I think you owe it to this community to divulge a name. After all, he (assuming it's a he)has told you that he intentionally deceives people he's working with.

I once mentioned something here about a vendor I had a problem with, and had to post an apology online and call him to apologize over the phone. There's a place and a time for everything, but publicly criticising someone isn't necessarily the best way to go.
I thought Claire showed a lot of character by keeping it to herself...

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Don Williams] I once mentioned something here about a vendor I had a problem with, and had to post an apology online and call him to apologize over the phone. There's a place and a time for everything, but publicly criticising someone isn't necessarily the best way to go.
[/QUOTE]

Don-
This issue comes up all the time here, and "I just don't get it!"

It's appropriate to praise and flatter suppliers here on the OLF but inappropriate to criticise when they give poor service?

If we're not allowed to criticise or provide 'feedback' on vendors to the community here, I don't think we should be allowed to continue piling on the praise either. The present policy is so tilted toward the interests of the vendors that it's ridiculous.

John

Well, sometimes the praise and flattery here are a bit over the top, I'll admit.

But...I'll not back down from saying that there's no need to blast someone publicly, especially in this case where the issue is only suspected, and not in fact proven to be an issue.
Someone said to me that if I choose to speak publicly about someone else's shortcomings, then I had better be prepared to have other people say things about me publicly too.
My wife has a motto - "No Whining" which is a really good thing. Nobody wants to hear someone whine over something and then drag their name through the mud.

I'll say it again, in this case, Claire showed great character by keeping the name to herself. This wasn't about the vendor, it was about trying to find a way to make the wood useable.

I'm fairly certain that Lance and Brock would prefer to have us not rip people to shreds here on their site. That's not why we're here. I've done it, and refuse to go there again. I will certainly admonish folks to do the right thing when given the opportunity, which in this case was as Claire originally chose to do, which was not post the person's name publicly. If you really want to know, and are concerned about doing business with that same vendor, then ask Claire privately...

If I had sold someone something that they didn't like or they felt was misrepresented, I would hope they would say something to me and give me opportunity to make it right.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=JohnAbercrombie] [QUOTE=Don Williams] I once mentioned something here about a vendor I had a problem with, and had to post an apology online and call him to apologize over the phone. There's a place and a time for everything, but publicly criticising someone isn't necessarily the best way to go.
[/QUOTE]

Don-
This issue comes up all the time here, and "I just don't get it!"

It's appropriate to praise and flatter suppliers here on the OLF but inappropriate to criticise when they give poor service?

If we're not allowed to criticise or provide 'feedback' on vendors to the community here, I don't think we should be allowed to continue piling on the praise either. The present policy is so tilted toward the interests of the vendors that it's ridiculous.

John

[/QUOTE]

It hasn't got anything to do with that. Neither Lance nor I expect anyone to praise a business.

However, and I am sure you can understand this, there is a temptation for consumers who feel like they have mistreated to try and use communities such as the OLF as a "club" to beat vendors into submission.

We want no part of that. This isn't about sponsors or non sponsors. The OLF is not a forum for dispute resolution.

Don't try to make this into something it is not.

I am sure you understand that this is not the purpose of the forum and using the community in this way coudl quickly create problems of such a magnitude that it could potentially destroy it.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I agree with Don wholeheartedly on this one. Any vendor can blow it once in a while. The proof in the pudding is how he / she responds after the fact.
Claire; Your vendor is selling wood which is supposed to be suitable to your purpose. If you have done everything right regarding humidity control, then the wood was not suitable... He should replace the defective product or return your purchase price, even though you have already worked the wood, if only to protect his reputation.
If you are paying a premium price, it is not unreasonable to expect a premium product.
Your supplier *might* be justified in withholding a portion of the purchase price, (to cover his time in packaging & shipping etc.) but some equitable agreement should be made.
A better solution (isn't hindsight fun?) would have been to return the ugly set immediately. Most tonewood suppliers have a "no questions asked" return policy. If they don't, I wouldn't deal with them.

[QUOTE=Brock Poling]

Don't try to make this into something it is not.

[/QUOTE]

Brock-
This is not about a problem with a single transaction.

The point under discussion in the past few posts-which Paul Woolson brought up- is that this vendor had told Claire that he(?) deliberately misled and 'tricked' buyers as a common practice. I don't see why the vendor's identity should remain a secret, though this is really up to Claire to decide.

If you're lucky enough to talk in person to other builders from time to time, you will hear 'horror stories' about some vendors, as well as recommendations for good sellers. Many participants here on the OLF can't talk in person to other builders- the online forum is their 'builder community'. I don't see why we only get the 'candy-coated' side of the story at the OLF, but I suppose that part of the reason is that the 'bad guys' have everybody afraid of being sued.

Recently you closed a post about problems with a wood vendor using the standard rationale-isolated case, conflict resolution, etc etc. Just a few days earlier,I'd been talking to a (new) builder friend who'd recounted the story of an incredible hassle (cheating on quality, no delivery, not answering phone calls) with the same vendor. Who do we help by keeping such stories secret?

John

As John said, to me, this isn't a case where the vendor may or may not have screwed up. It's not a case of blowing it once in a while.
As Claire said, "He's told me stories of tricks that he does to fool customers, so now i question his honesty."
Now seriously, do you people want to be inadvertently purchasing from someone that does this? I agree with Brock in that this isn't the place for a lynching over bad customer service. But this could potentially affect each and every one of us. If someone is deliberately trying to trick us, we owe it to the community to put a stop to it.

[QUOTE=JohnAbercrombie] [QUOTE=Brock Poling]

Don't try to make this into something it is not.

[/QUOTE]

Brock-
This is not about a problem with a single transaction.

The point under discussion in the past few posts-which Paul Woolson brought up- is that this vendor had told Claire that he(?) deliberately misled and 'tricked' buyers as a common practice. I don't see why the vendor's identity should remain a secret, though this is really up to Claire to decide.

If you're lucky enough to talk in person to other builders from time to time, you will hear 'horror stories' about some vendors, as well as recommendations for good sellers. Many participants here on the OLF can't talk in person to other builders- the online forum is their 'builder community'. I don't see why we only get the 'candy-coated' side of the story at the OLF, but I suppose that part of the reason is that the 'bad guys' have everybody afraid of being sued.

Recently you closed a post about problems with a wood vendor using the standard rationale-isolated case, conflict resolution, etc etc. Just a few days earlier,I'd been talking to a (new) builder friend who'd recounted the story of an incredible hassle (cheating on quality, no delivery, not answering phone calls) with the same vendor. Who do we help by keeping such stories secret?

John

[/QUOTE]

John I am not going to debate this. I laid out a very rational and good reason why we are not going to allow our community to get drug into the middle of people's disputes. We simply are not going to allow the community to be used as an economic weapon.

I agree that it is nice to have the heads up on who is not measuring up, but this is not the format for that to happen. I *also* agree that members heap on the praise to vendors who do well for them (which I have no problem with).

But your suggestion is that this is to "protect" sponsors and that is patently wrong. And to suggest this is not productive for our community. There is no conspiracy here.

To suggest that we are worried about getting sued is closer to the point, but in fact I will tell you that Lance received some kind of insane death threat from one such vendor and serious or not that is enough to prove to us that we don't want any part of this.

There are just a few rules here... (and very reasonable ones I might add) just go along with them... will ya?

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Brock - Thank you!  As a newbie to the group who is beginning to create a stock of ZOOT/WAS I could use the PM to ask about a particular vendor.  Am I correct?

To me the rule is not onerous, but needed to, as Brock mentioned, keep this forum from deteriorating into anarchy.  We have other, more subtle, and less litigous ways of weeding out dishonest folks.

Wow what a hijack on Claire's thread!  Claire, I trust that you have your answers?  As an open question to Paul Woolson,  Would heat as well as the SS help?  I.e. spray with SS, weight with flat board or in radius dish and add a heat lamp to get temp up towards 200 deg and let cool under the weight for a week?

Claire, Good luck and come on back!  This is really a great place.

_________________
Steve Walden
Aspiring Builder,
Bartlesville, OK

[QUOTE=WaldenWorx]

Brock - Thank you! As a newbie to the group who is beginning to create a stock of ZOOT/WAS I could use the PM to ask about a particular vendor. Am I correct?

To me the rule is not onerous, but needed to, as Brock mentioned, keep this forum from deteriorating into anarchy. We have other, more subtle, and less litigous ways of weeding out dishonest folks.

Wow what a hijack on Claire's thread! Claire, I trust that you have your answers? As an open question to Paul Woolson, Would heat as well as the SS help? I.e. spray with SS, weight with flat board or in radius dish and add a heat lamp to get temp up towards 200 deg and let cool under the weight for a week?

Claire, Good luck and come on back! This is really a great place.

[/QUOTE]

That would likely work BUT don't heat it while the Super Soft is still wet. I've got a side, hanging on my wall, that is horribly stained because I tried to bend it while the SS was still wet.
So if you are going to heat it, make sure the SS has dried overnight first.

I believe the problem was created by joining the back at the wrong humidity. I would cut the seam, then rejoin the back with the humidity in the proper range.

As far as the unscrupulous vendor....... I would save his name for private messages. That way the word can get out without public defamation.

Al

[QUOTE=WaldenWorx]

Brock - Thank you!  As a newbie to the group who is beginning to create a stock of ZOOT/WAS I could use the PM to ask about a particular vendor.  Am I correct?

[/QUOTE]

Sure, that is a-ok.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Thanks everyone for their thoughts and tips.
The supersoft sounds like a great product.

Now to delve into the forum archive about supersoft. [:D]

Cheers,
Claire

Someone on another forum had a similar problem with a local guitar parts supplier here in Oz. The bloke just didn't want to know about any problems, wouldn't respond to emails etc.

So it got talked about on the forum, the supplier was named through pm's only. Then somebody drew his attention to that thread. His attitude totally changed and he made good. Everyone's happy with him now and as far as I know he's given great service since then. I guess he got a bit of a shock when he realsied that most of his customers all knew each other. I wouldn't have a problem doing business with him in future. He fixed it and we all moved on.

Sometimes forums like this can be a great place to see who is not measuring up, and to do something about it. That said, there is a right way and a wrong way. With the wrong way likely to lead to litigation.

'course the moderators whould have to be happy about it and the ones here aren't, so 'nuff said.

Just a tiny word here from a legal point of view (I work for a law firm over here, but I add the caveat that I am not a qualified lawyer). It is my understanding that praising someone in publication is, of course, entirely appropriate and legal.

Criticising someone as an individual can, depending on the circumstances, be entirely legal and appropriate. So long as what you write is evidencable in a court of law, basically. Even then, you're into the territory of potential for defamation and libel.

Criticising a company's service or behaviour more often than not will land you the wrong side of the law of tort. Again, you could theoretically be entirely correct, with a whole raft of anecdotal evidence behind you, but particularly in a case like this where the accusation has not been made directly to the company involved in a clear and forthright manner, you're really just opening yourself, and the publication you write it in, to a whole raft of legal nonsense.

Having co-adminned internet communities with over 10k members before now, I made it a point to find out from my work colleagues about this. So all I can say really is that although I realise it seems the law is unfairly stacked to protect the guilty, in actual fact, it protects everyone involved equally. Innocence until *proven* guilty and all that jazz.

I think Brock is 100% right in the rules on this. It protects potentially innocent people engaged in misunderstandings and the forum itself.

I was only reading in the archives recently about the results of not having a policy like this on Kevin Gallagher, and I, for one, would not on a moral basis like that to happen to anyone.

Sorry to interject, just got excited as it's a subject I actually have some experience to share with you all. Seems to balance a little bit the enormous reams of information I've got from the archives alone.

To the OP - I hope your wood straightens out! That's a lot of moolah to lose to warping :(

Seems to me that if all Claire's tops were joined in the same RH and the same manner, that the problem lies with the wood. My guess is that that set wasn't dry to start with, or it is not quartersawn.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

[QUOTE=Dave Bamber] Just a tiny word here from a legal point of view (I work for a law firm over here, but I add the caveat that I am not a qualified lawyer). It is my understanding that praising someone in publication is, of course, entirely appropriate and legal.

Criticising someone as an individual can, depending on the circumstances, be entirely legal and appropriate. So long as what you write is evidencable in a court of law, basically. Even then, you're into the territory of potential for defamation and libel.

Criticising a company's service or behaviour more often than not will land you the wrong side of the law of tort. Again, you could theoretically be entirely correct, with a whole raft of anecdotal evidence behind you, but particularly in a case like this where the accusation has not been made directly to the company involved in a clear and forthright manner, you're really just opening yourself, and the publication you write it in, to a whole raft of legal nonsense.

Having co-adminned internet communities with over 10k members before now, I made it a point to find out from my work colleagues about this. So all I can say really is that although I realise it seems the law is unfairly stacked to protect the guilty, in actual fact, it protects everyone involved equally. Innocence until *proven* guilty and all that jazz.

I think Brock is 100% right in the rules on this. It protects potentially innocent people engaged in misunderstandings and the forum itself.

I was only reading in the archives recently about the results of not having a policy like this on Kevin Gallagher, and I, for one, would not on a moral basis like that to happen to anyone.

Sorry to interject, just got excited as it's a subject I actually have some experience to share with you all. Seems to balance a little bit the enormous reams of information I've got from the archives alone.

To the OP - I hope your wood straightens out! That's a lot of moolah to lose to warping :([/QUOTE]


Thank you Dave. I appreciate your comments on this. I have read the horror stories about this stuff and honestly this is just one area we want to steer clear of.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

in the end this forum is privately owned and we must respect the rules as established by the owners...

one thing is obvious, and that is the fact this forum is run on a shoestring budget (the snail like speeds prove that!)...the point being skipping the concept of legal/illegal the simple costs of defense would bankrupt the operators...

I am a supermoderator on a couple of forums and respect the rules established here...while I support the feelings of those who would like to be able to warn others, I also know for a fact many people use the internet to slam their competition unfairly using any methods at their disposal...it is way to easy for a savvy person to make up any identity they wish and use proxies in some attempt to disguise themselves (the person with access to the server logs can many times defeat these attempts)...in the end people lie, both the consumers and suppliers and from what I interpret this forum is intended as a place for luthiers and wannabes to learn from each other...

Claire is obviously a user who took the time to read the rules and followed them (unlike a poster who recently dissed a certain supplier located in Alaska...who hopefully got at the least severely warned if not banned)...

simply put, as previously hinted, this forum cannot afford to get into a situation where it is put out of action which would lead to severe financial repercussions to the owners and loss of use to the members...

Claire - did I read this right? $350 for a back/sides set of Spanish Cypress? Thats an awful lot of money for one set of Cypress.

Can you post a picture of how warped it is?

_________________
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