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Rick, which WEST Systems hardener do you use? Do you use a thickener?

Thanks.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Ken I was not as worried about you as I was a newbee ending up having problems.

I know what you are refering to now. It is the area where the grain is running straight out of the heel block. From the radius up about an inch or so along the sides of the radius. I have found that problem to be that the pore pocket is exposed over a longer and wider area . It is really hard to get all the sanding dust out of there. I have had the darken issue just by sanding and handling the neck there with out really clean hands.

Pumice is sounding really good right now!   (There is no "Tightwad" Emoticon)

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

As a pore fill, I've used West Systems on two of my guitars, and have seen it used on at least 5 others - and I'm a total newbie. It's great stuff. It's clear, easy to work, there is no mixing with the proper dispensing pumps, the shelf life is several years long...and it sands off just great.

My question, specifically for the West Systems users (Rick are you out there?) is this: How are you sanding after using West Systems as the pore fill? I've done two completely by hand now, and would like to move to some mechanical means. I have a Festool variable, 5" ROS, and the Festool vac. I'm guessing this will work just fine, but I'd like to hear recommendations from those that are actually doing it. Thanks!

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

The cost is just not an issue to be taken seriously when the results are as good as we get.   I don't "get" cheaping out on finish materials...that's the last place on the guitar to try to save money. Besides which, the cost is really not bad per guitar, and I'm making up more than the cost in savings on finish since I'm saving a day's spraying.   The better you can prep the surface, the better, thinner, and cheaper your finish will be. It's false economy to complain about this cost.

Don't buy the little repair packs, just go for it and get quarts. It's also great glue for laminating necks or whatever.

We got both speeds of catalyst so we can use which ever is appropriate.

No, they got (aquired) them in the past, which is a perfectly fine phrase. Now, having gotten them, they can use whichever is appropriate.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

1) Sealing under a colored pore filler is routine, and the only way to keep the wood from staining.

2) Dewaxed shellac is as good a sealer for this purpose as anything, and better than most.

3) I have had no problems sealing with dewaxed shellac and then filling with epoxy. It's not necessary to seal before an epoxy fill, but I find that the squeegeeing of the excess epoxy feels smoother, and excess filler sands off a bit more cleanly.

4) If sanding back your excess epoxy is burdensome, then you are leaving too much excess. Dulled single edge razor blade with corners rounded works for me. Put some pressure on it, angle the blade so excess goes toward the side you haven't filled yet.

5) I tried LMI waterbased "microbead" filler about 5 years ago, and had to refinish two guitars as a result. Looks like it filled, then when you lacquer, it's like it isn't there at all. If I want colored filler, I go with traditional solvent type semi-paste filler. Which brings me to

6) Water based products generally suck. Every few years the next generation comes out and all the problems have been solved and they are claimed to now work as well as solvent products--until all the problems are solved again a few years later. Kind of like the way we keep turning the corner in Iraq, except nobody dies.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I'm reading the WEST SYSTEM web site. Hardener 205 (fast) has a pot life of 9 to 12 minutes, and is described as medium viscosity. Hardener 206 (slow) has a pot life of 20 to 25 minutes, and is described as low viscosity.

With differences in both viscosity and pot life, which do you guys find works better for you for pore filling?

Do you use a thickener?

BTW, there are two other WEST SYSTEM hardeners: 207 Special Coating Hardener, and 209 Extra Slow. (What happened to 208, I wonder?)

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Waddy wrote: "Pumice is sounding really good right now!   (There is no "Tightwad" Emoticon)
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Waddy "

Shouldn't this be "TightWaddy"?

Seriously, Is pore filling also done for a flat finish or just for a gloss?

Thanks,

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Steve Walden
Aspiring Builder,
Bartlesville, OK

I do not use a thickener because if you don't sand absolutely to wood, it colors spots of epoxy film left on the surface.   With no filler, it doesn't pore fill quite as well, but we don't have to sand as carefully, either, and the sealer wets exactly the same as the epoxy.

Hey, I'm a tightwad...we're making guitars that have to go out for wholesale prices of as low as $1,200.00   Every penny counts.   This is saving me money in labor, finish cure time, and finishing materials.   Win, win, win...

I've used the fast catalyst; my employees prefer the slow.   I'm a bit quicker at things than they are...and more impatient!

OH, we've gone to doing our sating finishes over pore-filled flat base coats, so yes, epoxy, then sealer, then polyester, then satin. Just how we do it. Do what you like.

Shouldn't this be "TightWaddy"?

Indeed it should, and I demand an Emoticon!  Maybe I can make one.  I made my own Edit button.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I think what is happening is this:  my wood appears to be filled after several coats of Colortone grain filler.  I apply a coat of Colortone Sealer then sand.  I think during sanding the grain filler gets pulled out.  This is the only way I can explain why the wood appears to not be filled in places.  I think I need to go to an epoxy - something that adheres better to the wood.

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A higher purpose for wood.
Rich Smith
Issaquah, WA

The nice thing about the West system is that they have the metering pumps for a 5:1 ratio. One full stroke on part "A", one full stroke on part "B", and you've got it. No measuring, no gram scale baloney; just pump away.

Wile hardware store epoxy will get the job done I do suggest you use a finishing resin like West system or Zpoxy finishing resin.

The reason I do not recommend 5min or 20 min hardware store epoxy is two fold. first is the do not sand well the other is their viscosity is much higher and may bridge the pores rather than actually fill the pores. If they bridge the pores then they can shrink back later.

A finishing resin has about 1/3 the viscosity of 5 min epoxy. cures slower and sands much better

I'm preparing to use West to grain fill a mahogany guitar that I am using as a "paint test dummy"  It's a Walden guitar that the neck got snapped at the end which also pulled the bridge and plate right through the cedar top. It was a bear to strip, took forever to get to bare wood. Don't know what they use to pore fill in China but man, the guitar weighs less in the white! I'm using 105 resin with the 207 hardener. A quart of the 105 was $32.00 and 10.6 OZ. 207 was $30.00. I agree with Rick when it comes to refinish materials. why work for weeks or months on a fine instrument and skimp on finishing materials unless you want a "skimpy" finish?

Does Z-poxy darken wood much?

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A higher purpose for wood.
Rich Smith
Issaquah, WA

Looking on the Lee Valley site (where I would tend to get it here in Canada) I'm wondering why no one has mentioned the 207 hardener which is "noted" as curing to an "exceptionally clear" natural wood finish?

I've not used epoxy as a filler to date but I will certainly give it a try the next few guitars around.

What is the shelf life of the resin and the hardener PRE-MIXED (not trying to yell, just making sure you get the question) That's kind of the killer possibly for me. I only build like 2 guitars a year so buying 32 ounces of resin seems like a bit of a waste if I can't use at least 3/4 of it, but if the shelf life by them self is long (like several years) I won't mind getting the stuff and giving it a try.

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"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

OK, Joe posted while I was typing so he's the first one to mention using the 207 hardener.

Got any pics of epoxied bodies folks, that would be good to see what the differences are between WEST, Z-Poxy or others.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson