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I must of missed something.    I don't understand why you would want to level the frets under tension. Level the FB, install and level the frets, string it up. The string tension should introduce the relief you need with the truss rod in neutral. That's my understanding and what I do. But I haven't built 1000's of guitars, so I could be wrong.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

I'm with you Ron!

Ron, do you think all necks behave properly with no string tension and a truss rod adjustment?   Not in the world I live in...   The real question is why wouldn't you want to level the frets in the condition that the neck is really going to operate under.

The only way to get necks right is to reference them with string tension full on.   Then you get to see what a real neck does in the real world. Some necks do a nice, as predicted forward bow relief. Some, however, do weird "S" curvy things and do them differently on bass and treble sides of the neck. For about fifty cents, you can make a tool that allows easy and quick fret leveling under full string tension.   Anyone I know who has tried this has become a believer.   

We usually do a basic fret level when fretting the necks. Then when we do final setup, if it isn't just right, we go to a second fret level under tension.   This always gets it dialed in beautifully.

Sometimes you have to stop over-thinking some of these things...stop pretending that you know just how a neck is going to react...stop getting all theoretical. Get down to the street level where the strings meet the frets. Get down and dirty and do the job the easiest way possible. This happens to be my contribution to helping all of us save time and make money getting frets just right.   

No, it's not the only way, but for guys like Evan or me...for whom time is money...when something like this comes along, you just do it. It just works.   And it doesn't cost $100,000.00 like a Plek machine...

Oh, if you want to work relief or drop off into the fingerboard, just make some shorter versions of this tool that allow you to work more locally.   

      I think what Ron is mentioning is specialty setup. If a guy is a big strummer as opposed to a light finger picker the relief would be a different animal.

    I'm a real big fan of the alumi-angle dressing method and I have'nt even tried it yet. My experience in rough stock angle though is, it's not all flat. Do you dress it down or check it over before using?

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

So to just complete the the thought process here. Once you have the fret
tops dialed in, then you would remove the strings, reshape the frets and buff
and polish, re-string and Bob's yer uncle? And the shorter pieces you use,
would then span like 3 or 4 frets? I just happen to have a 4 foot chunk of
this stuff in the shop...ready to chop!

Thanks Rick

Shane

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Canada

I didn't see any reference in Ron's post about specialty setup. I don't see a difference between a final tweak of fret leveling on a new guitar or doing a 1948 D-28 or a '76 Strat or whatever.   The only difference is that the new guitar is likely to change more in the next few months and few years.   The principle is the same...leveling the frets based not on what you'd like to see happen but rather on what is actually happening.   

This is Rick the old fart repairman talking, and once again I have to advocate that any guitar maker who really wants to build superior guitars might want to consider a few years in the trenches of retail guitar repair. It's not so much that I've been involved in making several thousand guitars (though I have), it's that I've worked on a good 170 years worth of guitars, and I've seen that wood necks do not necessarily bow into nice predictable relief. In the best of all possible worlds, they would. I don't live in that world, and I doubt that anyone here does either. The fact is that anyone who hasn't seen their guitars come back after ten or fifteen or nearly thirty years doesn't know how they will react to tension and time.

    I've used this tool and technique for leveling frets under string tension
since the mid 70s and have always gotten great playability results.

    As Rick said above, necks behave much differently under tension then we
might expect or desire. It's never enough to assume that a good level board
and consistently installed frets will make things right once the strings are
pulled to pitch.

   In order to get the best playability possible, work has to be done under
tension and this is a very practical and efficient way to do it.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

I agree with everything Rick said except for the "fifty cents" Mine was $1.62 (NYC prices) after seconds of exhaustive calculations I realized it was cheaper than my $300 neck jig. I did 3 guitars with it yesterday in the time it would normally take to do one. One was a 60's Kay hollowbody with a very humpy S curved fretboard. Worked great! Billy you are right about them not being totally flat. I just trued them up by using some marker as a reference then belt sander and paper on marble. Since it is aluminum it is very easy to work with. I am doing the fretboard extension on a Fender bass this morning just to kiss off the high spots.
   Shane, yes you do then have to crown and polish the frets when you are done but your accuracy is assured by doing it under tension. The Kay yesterday would have either had to go on the neck jig (timely and a bit annoying) or been refretted (not worth it to the customer)but Rick's tip saved the day.
    Rick mentioned that if it takes you more than 45 minutes you are doing something wrong. I was able to do each in about 20 minutes or so. Rick as he said is "the old fart repairman" and I am a young stud Actually Rick has been working on guitars longer than I have been alive so I am so thankful when he posts something like this. I am so busy doing repairs that I rarely have time to think outside the box and experiment with a new technique but maybe now I will have more time. Hats off to "the old fart repairmen" everywhere. Rick I am going to show up at your shop one day with a pastrami sandwich from Katz's deli
hand it to you give you a hug and turn around and go home! Thanks again,
Best, Evan

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http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

What size aluminum angle are you guys using 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" big enough? Will an 1/8" thick piece work under the strings or are you finding a 1/16" thick piece....and then I wonder about rigidity...just thoughts.

Greg

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Gwaltney Guitars

Terry,
   Once the strings are tuned to pitch, you need to be sure that the truss
rod is used to pull the neck completely sraight before you start using
your aluminum "L" leveler on the frets. If you try to level over any length
with reief in the neck, you'll end up low toward the nut and toward the
higher frets.

   Once you have leveled them, you can adjust the desired relief into the
neck and the clearance will be correct for very low, buzz free action.

    You'll find that you can reduce your typical neck relief significantly
when you start using this method and this tool for leveling.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Terry, I think the jig that has the fret notches in it for checking the relief of the fingerboard surface is just ridiculous. It's not the stupidest thing I've seen, but it's close.   Who really cares what the fingerboard surface is doing if there are frets in it?   You play the strings off of the fret tops, not the fingerboard surface.   I want to know how the frets are doing...and how the relief in the fret top line looks, and that doesn't take a silly jig; all you need is some straight edges and some guitar strings...which are presumable already on the guitar.

Now when doing a refret, that's when the fingerboard surface matters because it's the initial reference for the fret crown undersides to seat against. And all you need for checking that are your straight edges and maybe contour gauges.

As for the aluminum...I'm mostly using the 1/2" x 1/2" with a 1/16" wall thickness.   I have several lengths, and I do true them up on a granite surface plate with self stick sandpaper on the plate.   But you can get all up in your heads about this and worry it to death wondering if the aluminum is flat enough and this and that...   Don't worry so much. We did decent fret levels for years with funky out of flat mill smooth files with the tang's broken off.   You don't need some laser precision piece of ground exotic metal flat within a ten thou and certified by NASA.   Flat enough is flat enough for this kind of work.   The two main points are that your working the fret tops under string tension, AND you can quickly play the guitar to chase out any problem spots.   You can then work one area of just a few frets to tease out any buzzes.   I have several lengths of these little buggers, and that allows me to work relief in where I want it if the truss rod doesn't quite get it, etc.

As it is said, KISS...Keep It Simple, Stupid!   

And Evan, I'm sorry for the high price of aluminum on the New York street...Still beats the price of a Plek!

Rick, I bought my neck jig from Dan Erlewine before they appeared in the Stew Mac catalog and have been using it for quite a few years. I was under the impression that the jig also simulated the neck's physical state while held in the playing position vs. the guitar lying on its back. I've noticed that the jig dials usually indicate a significant amount of neck movement between these two positions. Is this something to be concerned with when applying your technique or am I simply worrying too much about it.   

I love this idea, and Rick (Evan, too!) I genuinely appreciate the advice. I'm not far off doing a setup on a couple of guitars...and this is going to be one of the things I do.

Thanks again!

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Hi Rick, first of all, thank you for sharing your ideas they are greatly appreciated.

I do have a question about the 1/2"x 1/2" "L" angle...how the heck do you get all of the way across the frets with only 1" of flat bar available(1/2" on each side)...do you push the strings in as you go further up the neck?

Thanks Again,
Greg

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Gwaltney Guitars

Greg, you go string by string (and between the strings) to eliminate high spots then remove the strings and crown. It is so quick it is scary.
Best, Evan

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http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

   With all of the jigs and fixtures available to us as repairpeople and
builders, it sometimes gets hard to believe that our old school methods
and the most simple and inexpensive tools that we've relied on for
decades can possible be best.

    I have every tool, jig and fixture that has been made available over the
years by all of the lutherie catalogs to offer the builder and repair person
a more high tech and accurate result when they appraoch alot of
problems. Most were purchased to present as many alternatives to my
students as I taught classes on guitar buildng and repair over the years,
but many were discarded and put on shelves after very little use that
made it obvious that they were useless and caused more problems than
they solved.

    Fret work is so important because it determines the playability and
performance of the guitar in so many ways. As Rick said earlier in this
thread, the fingerboard isn't where any readings of a neck's condition
should be taken, but the tops of the frets.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Kevin just nailed it, the first fret leveling file I made years ago is the one that I use the most and I prefer it to the higher priced ones I have purchased through catalogs, sometimes the old stuff just works. By the way Kevin do you have any more room on your shelves for some of my stuff
Best, Evan

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http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

I guess I missed the original thread about what Rick uses to do a fret level. Can someone point me to this thread??


Thanks Gary

I have been using the original Teeter compensation jig for many years so I understand the value of leveling with string tension. The thing I don't understand about Rick's technique is how do you handle a high first or second fret. It seems the nut would limit the amount of sanding you could do at this end of the neck. It also seems this would cause you to sand a little unintended relief into the middle of the fretboard.

Hmmm, do I sense a tutorial coming on? This would be a good one for Kevin Gallagher to do...haven't seen one of his instructional pieces for awhile.      (Just kidding Kevin, I know how busy you are.)

But if somebody wants to tackle it, that would be just super.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.