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This is for Dave in case he has not seen it, ladder braced Weiss

Alan I am interested in learning about using how to use my computers sound card to further my understanding of how any part of a stringed instrument works. I will watch for such a thread.

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

"aside from the specific input force vectors of the string,"

Big aside.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

"Ladder bracing boosts that 'cross dipole' pitch even higher, if I'm to beleive the small sample of guitars I have that used it. If Meyers is right, this ought to boost the 'fullness' even more, but, perhaps, at the expense of 'clarity' ."

I was going to say, "So much for Meyers being right," but I'd rather say, "So much for any oversimplification yielding a formula for how a guitar will sound." [Al knows that]

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

One more same site Knustsen harp guitar bracing

If anyone has other links or examples I would be interested.

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

Ya know... it seems like every time Al C. takes the time to write something, I learn a little more - many thanks for provoking so many thoughts!   

Howard Klepper wrote:
"I was going to say, "So much for Meyers being right," but I'd rather say, "So much for any oversimplification yielding a formula for how a guitar will sound." [Al knows that] "

Yeah: I was in a real hurry yesterday as my students were about to arrive and I had to get out to the shop. Thus I left some things unsaid.

One of the main ones was: ALL ELSE EQUAL. It's not so much that my little disquisition on brace angles and tone was 'oversimplified', but it was certainly only one part of a very complex equation. Ladder and X and fan braced guitars differ in a lot of ways aside from the crosswise stiffness of the top, and all of these things work together to produce the sound. What 'ought' to happen often doesn't, simply because there are other things that compensate. That's why it's quite possible, as I have seen in my own experience and talked about in this thread, to make a ladder braced guitar that sounds like a good fan braced one.

Possible, but not easy. Remember: "The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's how the smart money goes".

K.O., I'm not being snippy in saying that I think we've talked this one near to death; it's just time to take wood and glue in hand and build.   

The only things that I could come up with as suggestions on how not to wind up with a funky and cheap-ass sounding guitar were to go thin and tall with braces that taper out to the ends, and to dome (or cylinder arch) the top. One of our resident ladder braced guitar makers, Dave White, pointed out that that is exactly what he does, and clearly Dave gets good results.

There seems to be a fascination with revisiting the oldest method of bracing guitar tops, but the only way you're going to really find out how it works is to do it. That means being willing to take the risk that it will not sound as you might like...but that's a risk we take anytime we try something "new"...even if it's an old thing brought up to date.

Al and I have gotten pretty thick with the theory behind a lot of this, but that is still not going to give you any kind of guarantee. I suspect that you will get something of an archaic tone with this, and I do not mean that as a negative.   The sound of the best "X" braced guitars (OK, my opinion) is pretty full and even across the spectrum.   The sound of the ladder braced guitars that I've played and liked seems to have more obvious "holes" in the spectrum. There's that kind of in a cave reverberant thing that can be very appealing.   

And in the now for something completely different department...think Selmer Macaferri...ladder braced guitars...Here's some reading http://www.lehmannstrings.com/Articles/selmer.htm

...major league domed top, tall thin braces...

Rick - hey now I'm really blushing

I think that the thing you do get with ladder braced guitars that you don't get as much with X braced ones is that growly mid-range honk when you dig in and then damp the strings - which is, I suppose, why they fit in the blues/ragtime/ slide playing so well. That's all I was expecting when I built the first one but I have been surprised and amazed by just how versatile a sound - depending on your playing - this sort of bracing can produce. Lots of sustain and complexity in there as well and I get great balance across the strings and up and down the fretboard.

I would definitely echo what Rick says in that the way to learn is to get out there and build using - mostly - the same principles you would use building X brace. Let the feel of the wood in your hands and your eyes and ears guide you and never be afraid of failure - "that way learning lies" as Yoda might have said

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

"Honk"...yes. In the best case that can be a very pronounced spike or hole in the response...a very strong character mark on the tone.

To wrap this back around to the Ry Cooder thing...he's perhaps the best player I've ever met and heard who could find an endearing characteristic in practically any guitar and then play to that particular and even peculiar strength. Ry can "make friends" with any guitar and utilize its oddities in the most amazing way, and every time the sonic result is pure Cooder.

Rick I did not think you were being snippy I thought you might be disappointed or frustrated and my misuse of terms may have left you with the impression that you where either dealing with an idiot or a bs artist.

It really is about the unbalanced dipole though.

Look guys you have helped me so immensely that I finally had an AHA moment today and if Ive got it right I am a lot closer to getting started but as you know any guitar is a very complex set of relationships and compromises.

I am not afraid to fail on this (the Ry Cooder reason) plus the for me the procses is my succsess. Charging in whith out a firm plan is certian failure though.

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

I just spent two hours typing a post to present my AHA hypothesis and lost it when I went to page one.
It is late I frustratingly quit for tonight. am going to write it on paper and then type in soon.

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

What really sucks is I realize my hypothesis may be unsound.

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] I see nothing wrong with this thread.

Personally, I think debates and discussions like this are productive ... as long as we can be civil to one another.

[/QUOTE]

Amen, bring it on. This is what a "forum" in it's true sense, is all about. Guys we all respect and can learn from, in a 'robust' discussion.

You can save the group hugs for later...

First another link Stella Bracing

Here is the deal, I feel like I have taken my first baby step towards truly understanding the voicing of a guitars top. I feel that I could now give a decent synopses(brief and by no means complete) of how I think each different specific example of ladder bracing is working. I think I can now apply this to other forms of bracing. I am no expert so I may be off base some on my thinking and as they are slightly involved(read long winded) I will not present them unless asked.

I had two purposes in mind when I started this thread.
Gain a better understanding of ladder bracing and the possibility of controlling the clarity/overtone equation.
The second goal lead me to a develop a theory.

This may be old hat to some or just wrong but have been looking at Information elsewhere and it seems to support it rather than disprove it.

First do not look a the top as a dipole but rather as two monopoles that are out of phase with each other.

Other factors aside the mid-range honk of a ladder braced guitar is in part due to lack of mid-range cancellation caused by the imbalance of the monopoles.

ONE monopole is much higher in frequency and of a lower amplitude. The effect of this is to lessen the amount cancellation occurring and move it to a higher frequency.

Another postulation but again could be wrong.(subjective)

Natural overtones occur along any given vibrating string.

The kg-14 brace/brigde plate combo is a sound killer so those overtones could not be heard.

John Hows refinements allowed those natural over tones
of the strings to be heard. Very unbalanced dipole little cancellation/reinforcement coloring them.

Dave Whites design moves more towards a balanced dipole
which spreads the phase cancellation/reinforcement over a broader spectrum giving a sense of lusher overtones.


summed up

All other things aside
The balance or imbalance of the freq/amplitude of the two monopoles is responsible for where and how broadly overtones are distributed. Due to phase cancellation/reinforcement.


???

Kirby

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

Beats me.

Let's see some glitter tests. At this point it's all talk.

Hey guys/gals I could not find a good discussion on ladder bracing and wanted to learn all I could even at the risk of beating it to death. Which I have now done.

I feel much more confident about my chances of success, now it is time to put pencil to paper and plane to wood.

Thanks all for your participation and patience!!!

Any glitter pattern examples would super nice.

    Kirby

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

Paul B. I am straight but can I have a hug?

_________________
"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...