Official Luthiers Forum!

Mario and everyone,

Thanks for all your input. I realy would like to learn how this was done as it all seems to be like one big piece of rubber stretched around the guitar...it's realy amazing. Not for Acoustics but Electrics could realy do some spectacular things...

Brock...I assume it was you who put the "tape" over the nipples? Thank You...

Bruce, I am so sorry if I offended you. Please tell us what is realy bothering you...because I have heard you say in print, much worse, in the past, than what these pictures display. Also, while this may be a "family like" sight, I believe it is intended for Adult luthiers. If a few nips get anyone that excited...what can I say?...I can only imagine what the "statue of David" would do to ya! Listen, I almost didn't take the guitar into my shop at first...then I looked at it... thought about it ...didn't get excited at all(pornographically) and decided that the finish application/technique alone was worth investigating. "Porno" has no place on this site, I agree, but I see nothing that fits the definition of Porn in those photos...I see a guitar with a very unusual application that I didn't even know existed until now. Do you have anything else with this same application that you can show the rest of us?
Personally, with Brock's editing, I can't see any reason to take it down. So what is it that realy has you all excited/in an uproar? I didn't say anything about grizzly's cases... Relax o.k.?

Keith M,
I used to own a "t-shirt" business and we used a system called sublimation. It was a special ink used in a special Epson ink jet printer that was then put on special materials. The ink would actually vaporize and re-establish itself with the substraight molecules under high heat (450-500 degrees) and severe pressure. The resulting T-Shirts lasted for years ( the shirts actually wore out before the transfers) and the colors/pictures were crystal clear and precise. I always said "If only I could do this on a guitar". You guys are right...it doesn't belong on acoustics but think of the possibilites on Electrics !!!

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Sorry, I am not the editing party. It must have been someone else.

I am going to hold my tongue about the strong feelings to censor this material.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I added the black tape, I hope everyone's OK with that.

Personally I'm not at all offend by the guitar or the artistic way in which its illustrated, but I can easily see how others would be, So I took the liberty of adding a few black strips to cool the fire before it got out of hand.

Its not my intention to ever censor a post, with nearly 10000 posts I've not had to until now.
Again, I hope everyones OK with what I did, if your not, I'm sorry.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

I'm a fairly conservative guy, but this pic did not offend me either. There
are some naked pics, but I look at it more of art rather than smut. And a
pretty cool technique too with the image transfer if that is what it is. Very
nifty.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

For crying out loud give me a break. Pornographic? Not by a long shot. There are pictures of bare breasts everywhere. Biblical pictures, art galleries,the History Channel, National Geographic. Cable TV and countless others. We have a statue of David butt naked in one of our public parks. I find that guitar to be a very well executed piece of art!

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Lance,

You are trying to keep the peace, so I agree that you did the right thing. If Bruce is offended, then others may be too, and we should honor their concerns.

Personally, I did not find it offensive in the least, and I am glad Dave posted the topic, as I have never seen that kind of "finish", and it looks ultra cool! For a rock n roll guitarist, that is a real neat axe to have. Not something I would do to a accoustic or classical guitar, but on a hot-rodded electric, you bet! That technique would be a good one to have available for a customer. Someone show us how!

Jeff

It realy is a cool guitar...I wish someone could help me learn that finish technique. It is perfect other than the finish checking ( I assume with age since Barracuda was recorded what 25-30 years ago?). Thanks to all who chimmed in with your helpful comments. Much Appreciated. Next time I'll put a warning label on the subject line.

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Thanks Jeff --

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

[QUOTE=LanceK] I added the black tape, I hope everyone's OK with that.

Personally I'm not at all offend by the guitar or the artistic way in which its illustrated, but I can easily see how others would be, So I took the liberty of adding a few black strips to cool the fire before it got out of hand.

Its not my intention to ever censor a post, with nearly 10000 posts I've not had to until now.
Again, I hope everyones OK with what I did, if your not, I'm sorry.[/QUOTE]

Lance,
I had no problem with the tape...I thought Brock did it because I saw him chimming in. SORRY BROCK! I hope that Bruce was the only one offended as my intent was not to offend but to share something that came into my shop the likes of which I had NEVER SEEN BEFORE! I appologize to all those who were offended

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

We seem to be mirroring on the forum that which plagues society as it relates to political correctness. The majority must obey the whims as dictated by a vocal minority. Rather than stand up for a simple element of common sense, we seem to twist to conform to an uncommon sense of narrow-minded thinking.

Sorry Brock...I don't have the same discipline as you in holding my tongue.

An anonymous poll on the topic of censorship would be interesting as would a poll as to whether the image is pornography or art.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

JJ,
I agree with you 100%. Those that know me real well know that you must read between the lines to get to the real message. Of course it's the typical political correctness garbage. That's why we must never be dictated to by the vocal minority. Wait until you see the pictures of Rick Derringer's guitar that is comming in next month! Oh baby oh! Lance get the Duct Tape OUT! ... Just kidding! Maybe I'll just post blank pages and you can all guess at what it looks like. Blank description too...it will be the invisible man's axe the one he used to play on his night's off! JUST KIDDING GUYS!

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

If it's questionable (the only post in 10,000 to be edited) just avoid it. Weigh it against Colossians 3. I like the site to stay clean and focused. My life works much better that way too. Not even a hint....

Hey Dave you think sublimation would work on a guitar? I guess you'd have to apply the decal to bare wood.. I've thought about that before too.. the guy I work with who has the lazer also does sublimation. The idea crossed my mind I just thought it wouldn't work on a bare guitar and the heat would cause problems if you tried to appy it to a filled and sealed one.

_________________
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OK, I was going to keep quite, but like many I am getting totally and utterly fed up with my life being dictated by the whims of the vocal minority deciding what I can and can't do. There was absolutely nothing offensive about that guitar, it was a remarkable piece of decoration.    and I think that the censorship of it with the virtual "sticky tape" was both ludicrous and insulting to the majority of forum users intelligence and only drew attention to its content. Lance I think you do a fantastic job of running this forum but I believe you did us all a major disservice in your giving in to minority pressure. I'm sorry if anyone found it offensive, but really, if you do just don't look.

Dave, I thought it was a really cool guitar, but if it relly was used by Keith Richards any retro work on it will seriously reduce its value!

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

"I'm sorry if anyone found it offensive, but really, if you do just don't look. "

Thats what I told my 7 year old daughter that was sitting on my lap when I read this post -- DON'T LOOK! Don't think for a second I didn't think THAT was ludicrous. I leave the OLF open 24-7 at home, on two computers. So ya Colin - I did everybody a HUGE disservice, as ludicrous as it was, I didn't put me in this position!

I knew from the second I seen this post it would be trouble, and some how id be the bad guy because I'M the one left having to deal with it. O'well!

As I said --sorry

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Dave, Here is a link to the Canadian guitar maker showing him with a money graphic guitar. His phone number is on the site. http://www.lutherieliberatore.com/index.html

Lance,
At least one member was offended and the nudity was not the reason for the post. Your edits did not affect the content of the post. Blackening out the "naughty bits" didn't hurt anything and was a measured response. On other forums the whole thread would have been deleted. I think you did the right thing.

[QUOTE=Jason] Hey Dave you think sublimation would work on a guitar? I guess you'd have to apply the decal to bare wood.. I've thought about that before too.. the guy I work with who has the lazer also does sublimation. The idea crossed my mind I just thought it wouldn't work on a bare guitar and the heat would cause problems if you tried to appy it to a filled and sealed one.[/QUOTE]

Sublimation can't work on a guitar. For one thing the material that the sublimated material adheres to is some special chemically designed stuff...it actually fuses with the transfer ( as opposed to regular iron ons that sit on top of the fabrics). Unless they came out some new sublimation stuff it just can't be done. The mugs, hats, license plates we made were all made of a specialy coated material. Hey who knows...but then again we had to use real high heat and a lot of pressure...so that sort of kills that idea. Keep thinking...or better yet lets find out how to do this system.

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

[QUOTE=Colin S] OK, I was going to keep quite, but like many I am getting totally and utterly fed up with my life being dictated by the whims of the vocal minority deciding what I can and can't do. There was absolutely nothing offensive about that guitar, it was a remarkable piece of decoration.    and I think that the censorship of it with the virtual "sticky tape" was both ludicrous and insulting to the majority of forum users intelligence and only drew attention to its content. Lance I think you do a fantastic job of running this forum but I believe you did us all a major disservice in your giving in to minority pressure. I'm sorry if anyone found it offensive, but really, if you do just don't look.

Dave, I thought it was a really cool guitar, but if it relly was used by Keith Richards any retro work on it will seriously reduce its value!

Colin[/QUOTE]

Not the type of retro work I'm doing...it's invisable. I was able to move the nut forward without moving the holes. next I just re-intonate to Feiten's intonation settings and I'm done.

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

[QUOTE=LanceK] "I'm sorry if anyone found it offensive, but really, if you do just don't look. "

Thats what I told my 7 year old daughter that was sitting on my lap when I read this post -- DON'T LOOK! Don't think for a second I didn't think THAT was ludicrous. I leave the OLF open 24-7 at home, on two computers. So ya Colin - I did everybody a HUGE disservice, as ludicrous as it was, I didn't put me in this position!

I knew from the second I seen this post it would be trouble, and some how id be the bad guy because I'M the one left having to deal with it. O'well!

As I said --sorry[/QUOTE]


Yeah, it is a tough spot to be in Lance. I think everyone understands your dilima.

My main "objection" to this (and in the larger context this applies to our society) is the ** MOMENT ** someone yells foul and says they have been "offended" everyone starts back peddling to accomodate them. Not out of simple courtesy, but as obligation.

The thing that really gets under my skin about this is that somehow this as become the rule within our society. "I have the right not to be offended." -- which is a total crock, and goes against the very philosophical fabric of our society.

I personally believe that if you CHOOSE to allow yourself to be offended by something you see... stop looking at it. (But your point regarding your daughter is well taken.)

I am not offended by your actions - I understand your postion - it is not a good spot and you dealt with it in a way you thought would make everyone happy.

I am more *sad* about the fact that we live in a society that has devolved into the group think mentality so far that it is ** necessary ** to take such actions.

And Bruce... well I just sort of feel bad for him too... he just expressed his opinion and it was sort of like pulling the trigger pin out of an a-bomb. At least from my point of view, none of this is aimed at him.

None of this is personal in my book. I am not worked up. But I also find it hard to set back and watch this happen without at least sharing my views.

I am going to go read a healthy dose of Atlas Shrugged today.   

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Lance,
I think the sensorship got more people upset than the pictures. Bruce really stired one up here. That's what he's good at. Now I know Bruce didn't post the pictures, I did. But I never anticipated that these guitar photos were offensive to Professional Luthiers. I didn't make the guitar, or paint the pictures. This is a real life repair, (that happens to have some collectors appeal because of it's recording and ownership history), that came into my shop. It more importantly has a finish on it which I had never seen before. Can anyone here fully describe this finish so well that pictures would be un-necessary? We are talking about the finish...how else do you ask for opinions without showing a picture? Almost every post on the forum that we see, asking for help...what is the first thing everyone, including Bruce always say " GOT ANY PICTURES?"
I don't want your 7yr old or my 7yr old looking at these pictures...I didn't post them on an open forum/internet at a kids corner. I posted them on a LUTHIER'S FORUM.
Don't blame yourself Lance...I take full reponsiblity. But let me ask you...had you ever seen this type of finish on a guitar before ( I don't mean the nudity...the finish). Probably not. I hadn't. I was just trying to learn and maybe help others learn. I had no problem with the tape. I appreciate the fact you didn't just remove the thread. So... THANK YOU !
I think the problem lies with the fact that one and only one person chimmed in with a complaint. The vocal minority shouldn't rule the roost. But the owner certainly CAN!!!!

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

I'm sorry Lance it was not meant as an attack on you, nor on Bruce he is free to express his opinion. I do think you do a great job and have to execise great wisdom But I believe you made the wrong choice here. I'm fed up with my life being run by vocal minorities who want to decide what I do, what I read, what I see. OK, I believe it is not possible to please all of the people, but pandering to minorities as soon as they shout foul does not make for a society I want to live in. I thought we'd all grown up a bit now.

There was nothing remotely obscene or pornographic on that post, certainly nothing my kids didn't see on every holiday beach we went to throughout their childhood, and it didn't corrupt them.

End of subject!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Well, I've avoided commenting on this, but I have to say something.

The question is, do pictures like these belong on Lance's site?
No. Lance has always been straight-forward with his desire to keep the site family-friendly.
May I humbly suggest that if anyone wants to post images that are going to be controversial, (and David, seriously, you knew those were going to be) post a link rather than an actual picture. At least that way Lance doesn't feel the need to do any editing, and you don't place him in as awkward a position.


Don Williams38446.3992939815

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Guys and Gals,

Come on, consider Lance and the situation he is in. He took the least invasive step to alter the pictures. He did not remove them, or delete the post, only added the cyber-tape. The images still show the technique that was used to finish the guitar, which was what was needed in the 1st place. A visual understanding. I have to give Lance credit on his restraint, and good judgement, and I am in agreement with his decision. The OLF is too valuable of a resource to let this become more than it is, just a difference of opinion.

Don,

Excellent idea about posting a link, that would keep the images on a site removed from the OLF.

Jeff

Don,
Honestly I didn't think at all that there would be controversy over the pics. And to be honest I didn't expect it from Bruce. That's why I asked him in an earlier part of the thread "what was realy bothering him". Your idea about a link is a good one. But many people have old machines or for what ever reason simply won't bother to follow a link. Should I have to ask Adult people to follow a link because I have a guitar that shows some breasts on it? It's not like the Janet Jackson / superbowl thing because I didn't "spring it" on a mixed audience in your living room. The Jackson thing had no other value/reason other than to cause controversy. I had absolutely no other reason for posting the pics other than I felt the finish could not be described without them. I welcomed the TAPE. I have no problem with the tape. It might have been nice for Lance to tell me he was doing it, but he doesn't have to, IT'S HIS SITE! Further I certainly didn't think there would be children on the site. With that in mind let's make sure we don't talk about drinking beer and partying anymore as that is not good for children to learn either. Doesn't that seem ridiculous? everyone's getting riled up over this. IT'S A GUITAR. WE ARE ADULTS. WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PROFESSIONALS. THESE INSTRUMENTS OBVIOUSLY EXIST IN THE REAL WORLD. Should a doctor not look at his patients breasts when examining her? I am not asking anyone to show it to their children or print out copies and hang it on your wall. I think all this is B.S. can some one please put some tape on that!

p.s. "B.S." stands for "back seat"

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"