***** Guitar Project Jigs, Tools & Techniques Online Resources Archives OLF Video Page Library of plans MP3 Library Inlay Class
Offical Luthiers Forum





And our community proudly sponsored by:

RC Tonewoods | Stewart MacDonald | LuthiersForum
TasmanianTonewoods | OLF | OLF MERCH
Luthier Suppliers | Pacific Coast Woods | ELEVATE
OLF X | Tasmanian Acoustic Tonewood | Luthiers Forum Store!
Luthiers Forum | OLF Facebook | AVAIL SPACE
OLF | Alaska Specialty Woods | A.Hix Tonewood
Duke of Pearl | Birkonium CNC | Space




Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Sat Nov 30, 2024 8:11 pm


Board index » Luthiers Forum Rooms » Guitar Building Forum

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 3 of 3
  [ 59 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
Hesh
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 12:53 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13391
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
banjopicks wrote:
Hesh wrote:
With this said the cloth patch we see far more frequently in vintage instruments may have the intended purpose of being flexible and may help produce a more efficient instrument if volume is the desired measure.

I never went to cloth but had I continued to build I might have. My last caps were only around .010" thick and tapered to nothing about 3/4" from the intersection but even still they made that junction super rigid and I always wanted to try to loosen that up and see what resulted.


Maybe no glue or reinforcement at all for that joint would be best. It aint going nowhere.


It would be worth a try but I wouldn't want to be the one to try it.... :) But you're right Hutch this would help the X intersection have some flex that may be a good thing.


These users thanked the author Hesh for the post (total 2): banjopicks (Fri Sep 22, 2023 6:07 am) • bcombs510 (Thu Sep 21, 2023 2:07 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
Bryan Bear
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 1:30 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:12 pm
Posts: 3293
First name: Bryan
Last Name: Bear
City: St. Louis
State: Mo
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
banjopicks wrote:
Unless you are like Karl and want your braces vertical and parallel.


I just taper the sides so no one can tell if they aren't vertically parallel :)

_________________
Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.


These users thanked the author Bryan Bear for the post (total 2): Pmaj7 (Fri Sep 22, 2023 9:59 am) • bcombs510 (Thu Sep 21, 2023 1:42 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
banjopicks
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 6:11 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:19 am
Posts: 1560
First name: Richard
Last Name: Hutchings
City: Warwick
State: RI
Zip/Postal Code: 02889
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Hesh wrote:
banjopicks wrote:
Hesh wrote:
With this said the cloth patch we see far more frequently in vintage instruments may have the intended purpose of being flexible and may help produce a more efficient instrument if volume is the desired measure.

I never went to cloth but had I continued to build I might have. My last caps were only around .010" thick and tapered to nothing about 3/4" from the intersection but even still they made that junction super rigid and I always wanted to try to loosen that up and see what resulted.


Maybe no glue or reinforcement at all for that joint would be best. It aint going nowhere.


It would be worth a try but I wouldn't want to be the one to try it.... :) But you're right Hutch this would help the X intersection have some flex that may be a good thing.


I don't mind being the guinea pig. I forgot to glue both of my guitars I'm working on so there. I may as well run with it. What's the worst that can happen?

_________________
Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!


These users thanked the author banjopicks for the post: bcombs510 (Fri Sep 22, 2023 6:14 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
DennisK
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 7:23 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:59 pm
Posts: 3595
First name: Dennis
Last Name: Kincheloe
City: Kansas City
State: MO
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Hesh wrote:
Some food for thought on a related topic. We've seen a cloth patch as Gibson used on the X intersection and we see others cap it and some with substantial caps.

Because of the full height intersection of the X-legs in this area of the top it's stiff as can be and that, in my way of thinking may not be the goal. As I've said before we are not building ottomans we are building structures that are supposed to be capable of moving and more specifically pumping.

With this said the cloth patch we see far more frequently in vintage instruments may have the intended purpose of being flexible and may help produce a more efficient instrument if volume is the desired measure.

I never went to cloth but had I continued to build I might have. My last caps were only around .010" thick and tapered to nothing about 3/4" from the intersection but even still they made that junction super rigid and I always wanted to try to loosen that up and see what resulted.

Another option I've considered is scalloping the intersection before gluing the cap. Retain the high stiffness to weight ratio of the lap joint without making the intersection area excessively stiff. It's also more symmetrical than the cloth joint, where one half of the X has continuous grain and the other is interrupted.

Not that symmetry is necessarily a good thing. Here's another fun idea, replacing two quadrants of the X pattern with a semicircular brace. Eliminates the 4-way intersection, and the long brace becomes a sort of fulcrum to create a strong asymmetric diagonal dipole.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

These users thanked the author DennisK for the post (total 4): Pmaj7 (Fri Sep 22, 2023 10:02 am) • bcombs510 (Fri Sep 22, 2023 9:18 am) • SteveSmith (Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:04 am) • Kbore (Fri Sep 22, 2023 7:39 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
banjopicks
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 9:10 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:19 am
Posts: 1560
First name: Richard
Last Name: Hutchings
City: Warwick
State: RI
Zip/Postal Code: 02889
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Interesting combo of falcate and standard bracing. For me, until I can somehow build 4 to six guitars a year, I don't think I want to stray from the Martin standard. I may and should try a full falcate braced guitar as it's a proven design.

_________________
Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!
Top
 Profile  
 
Kbore
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:23 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:19 am
Posts: 530
Location: St. Charles MO
First name: Karl
Last Name: Borum
State: MO
Zip/Postal Code: 63303
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
DennisK wrote:
.... Here's another fun idea, replacing two quadrants of the X pattern with a semicircular brace. Eliminates the 4-way intersection, and the long brace becomes a sort of fulcrum to create a strong asymmetric diagonal dipole.


I really like that idea @DennisK.
A short brace FROM between the RH X brace where it t-bones the LH X brace; TO intersect with the semicircle under the Top LEFT corner of the bridge would add support to counteract the bridge torsion from the strings. Just imagining that I have any idea of what I'm talking about.

I'm just about setpup to build a test bed "guitar body", sans top, for modeling a top's resonance with audio frequency energy from a Celestion speaker.

_________________
Measure Twice,

Karl Borum
Top
 Profile  
 
Colin North
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2023 7:09 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 5498
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Re the brace radiusing, I use a template/OH router with a flush cut bit to cut a radius, and then sand the x-braces, etc in pairs to help keep them at 90 degrees on radius blocks to 240 (I have 100/120/180/240 grit blocks)
Notches in the X braces are cut on a router table with 6mm or 6.3mm bits depending.
May sound complicated, but it goes pretty quick and gives a good fit and gluing surfaces,

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.


These users thanked the author Colin North for the post (total 2): Kbore (Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:06 pm) • bcombs510 (Sat Sep 23, 2023 7:27 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
DennisK
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2023 7:28 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:59 pm
Posts: 3595
First name: Dennis
Last Name: Kincheloe
City: Kansas City
State: MO
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Colin North wrote:
Re the brace radiusing, I use a template/OH router with a flush cut bit to cut a radius, and then sand the x-braces, etc in pairs to help keep them at 90 degrees on radius blocks to 240 (I have 100/120/180/240 grit blocks)
Notches in the X braces are cut on a router table with 6mm or 6.3mm bits depending.
May sound complicated, but it goes pretty quick and gives a good fit and gluing surfaces,

How do you clamp them for template routing where the clamps don't get in the way of the router?
Top
 Profile  
 
Colin North
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:08 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 5498
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Small wing nuts and a cork lined strip hold the brace against the 18 mm template which has a ledge and spacer to set various brace heights.
Some strokes with a block plane after putting the brace in help reduce any tear out/splitting on the face of the brace.
I have small wooden knobs on the template to move it along the router bit, I like my fingers ....

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 3 of 3
  [ 59 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

Board index » Luthiers Forum Rooms » Guitar Building Forum

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 40 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com