Official Luthiers Forum!

I just got a guitar to repair the bindings, loose in all 4 waist areas. I started repairing one with CA and got it done but there's a bit of clean up to do from wiping excess CA with my fingers. All the YT videos I watched seem to use CA. I made a caul to help pull it in with a clamp and it looks good. Is it possible to use some other glue that won't eat the finish and still hold?

_________________
Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

I like to use CA for such repairs. If the binding pulled some wood fibers out with it then you could get away with using Titebond. The trick I found to using CA is to open up the CA bottle and use a wicking toothpick or some such thing. Dip it in so that it has a drop on the end of it and use that tool to apply the CA very carefully. Also have a rag with acetone ready to go.

I'm afraid to use acetone on finishes.

_________________
Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

CA can be magical stuff, but a visible drop is a LOT. Straight-from-the-bottle and watch the Sorcerer's Apprentice at work! Learn how to accurately dispense very small amounts to already-clamped-in-place stuff. Its low surface tension lets it wick into joints all by itself.

And then tell bunglers like me how you managed to master this art.

_________________
Peter Havriluk

I'm sure by the 4th one I'll have it somewhat mastered. I definitely prefer to use a caul and clamp as opposed to finger pressure and tape as I've seen. This stuff doesn't want to stretch with a little heat and I don't want too much heat near the finish either.

I'm very familiar with the wicking properties of CA. I have pipettes to apply it. Maybe a toothpick would be better but I don't see how. I'm considering putting some wax on the body around the joint like some folks do on frets. I'm OK with a little extra glue right at the seam and can scrape and buff that.

_________________
Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

You can grab the nozzle of some pipettes with pliers and stretch the nozzle part to reduce the size of the opening. I also found that a big wound steel string, like the low E, holds a small but controllable amount of CA.

_________________
formerly known around here as burbank
_________________

http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Odorless CA does not attack finishes. Do not use acetone on lacquer, but it is safe on catalyzed finishes.
I do use a small heat gun to help stretch the binding. As long as you can hold your finger on the surface, it is not hot enough to damage lacquer or plastic binding. The heat will actually expand the plastic, so that it will almost go back flush in the waist without applying any pressure.
The alternative to stretching is to loosen the binding all the way to the center joint in the upper bout.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

_________________
John

You could try some Duco Cement in the green and yellow tube. It makes the binding softer until it cures. I used to rub it with my finger until it stayed put, let it cure 24 hours and then gently scrape smooth.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

BSI Super Gold thin is one of the safer CA glues suitable for binding repairs that Mr. Arnold references above. We seldom had any need to touch up lacquer as the burn-in of the CA on the finish was minimal,so minimum lacquer removal to get to sand and buff. With a quick cure and ability to further accelerate, perfect for those tough repairs where the binding is under tension.

Duco cement is gelled acetone, so it will soften ivoroid, tortoid, and other cellulose nitrate and acetate plastics, but is not hot enough solvent-wise to really get a bite into PVC/ADS alloys like Bolteron. The big advantage to Duco is a somewhat slower burn-in than liquid acetone. The disadvantage is slow drying time, requiring some accurate clamp-up on jobs like loose bindings in the waist.

_________________
For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

Binding repairs are covered under the Martin warranty to the original purchaser and it would be free for the client too if they are the original purchaser. If they never registered no problem they can register now, Martin is great about that.

Without going into detail there are two steps at times... to our binding repairs. Step one is a variable temp heat gun that has been tested and calibrated to get a certain temp and no hotter so you don't smoke the bindings. We just want, at times not always to make them more flexible and reverse the....................................shr*nkage..... without setting the guitar on fire.

Then comes the glue and there are multiple glues that work, we like CA but it also depends on the vintage of the instrument and what material they used for the bindings.

I made a mess using CA and will not use it again for this without more instruction. I spent the morning cleaning up the mess I made and absolutely need a better process before I touch the other 3 loose bindings.

My thoughts are to get them stretched to where they are easily pressed in with tape. At that point, I would love to use hot hide glue.

Help help help

_________________
Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

Many responses exist to someone's suggesting yielding to the siren's call to use CA to repair anything on a guitar. They're all cautionary, for a reason. Same applies to using other adhesives. Non-porous bindings aren't happy with wood glues in general. I urge testing any glue/material fix on something other than a guitar. Sometimes a professional repair is cheapest.

_________________
Peter Havriluk

if not already stated here, there is a learning cure for CA use, as well as recommended materials, tools, and techniques. If anyone suggested that CA was easy to use, we need to dispel that notion in favor of the idea that the learning curve associated with CA is worth traveling due to superior hold and (usually) avoidance of extensive touch-up work. No other adhesive holds as well on the contaminated, often difficult-to-glue surfaces associated with binding and purfling reattachment jobs.

Tips/Hints for Binding Repairs with CA:

1. Free the binding and purfling to the neck joint where possible to eliminate glue line stress and reset the clock for shrinkage. Most factory guitars will use a single piece of binding without a joint buy the tail block, but if not, it is still a less visible repair to work filler strips by the neck heel than by the tail graft.
2. Where it is not possible to work one end of the binding or purfling free up to the neck or is simply not needed, some materials respond well to moderate heat to stretch enough to allow a reglue of a loose waist binding. Too much heat may melt plastic binding, so be careful, and consider shielding the surrounding area with foil or corrugated cardboard.
3. Once ready to glue, tape the binding in place where feasible; where not feasible, consider using a caul covered with a low surface energy plastic to push things into place
4. Use a 1.5ml disposable micro-pipette with a flattened tip to tack-weld the top end of the binding in place (gently draw between fingernails - if the tip splits, discard and exercise more care on the next)
5. If the binding line is under stress (e.g., 2" of loose waist binding which may be successfully pushed into contact with the channel and purfling), careful remove a single strip of 1/4" width tape at a time and fully glue the top edge in place, then rotate the instrument to glue the bottom edge into the channel
6. If the glue lines are not under stress, for back binding, strip off tape and finish glue-up to within about 1.5 to 2" of the neck, fit binding and purfling filler pieces, then complete glue-up.
7. For top binding, if the neck is off (always easier to tackle major binding repairs with neck off and a neck stick installed), just finish the glue-up to the dovetail socket or neck mortise, adding filler strips only where required outside of the fretboard extension footprint. With neck on, it may be that filler strips are needed due to fractured or missing binding/purfling...life never comes with an 'Easy' button, does it?

Other considerations?

- Use fume-free CA (as mentioned, the BSI product is excellent), and wipe off the excess with a paper towel so as to avoid the finish over the top. Minimize CA remaining on the surface, as it will have to be removed!
- Buy and use quality micro-pipettes and poly 1 ounce dose cups instead of direct-from-bottle CA application (the reason will become obvious once you do so), and have a fresh can of GluBoost accelerator handy for times when a wait for cure is untenable.
- Keep in mind that the lower the viscosity of the CA, the further it will wick, so have the next few inches of binding and purfling in position when tack-welding
- If working poly-finished instruments, a goof can be freed, cleaned, and reglued provided your CA remover will not harm the binding materials, finish, or anything close to the repair site
- 1/4" vinyl electrical tape acts as both hold-down and CA dam if it will hold the work in place

_________________
For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

Ok, I'm ordering some BSI before making another attempt.

_________________
Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

I got the glue in yesterday and made my first attempt with it this morning. I think it went well but I'm not sure if it was because of the glue or me learning from my mistakes. Tonight or tomorrow morning, I'll do the top. Pictures when it's done. I'd love to make videos of my process for you all to scrutinize, but it takes too much time to set it up and my time in the shop is very limited.

_________________
Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

This guitar is out of my house, yay! Though I wasn't happy with the outcome and I didn't charge him, at least he was happy with it. I couldn't control the squeeze out that got under the tape and had a lot of filling, sanding and polishing to do. I also had a few nights where it was difficult to go to sleep with all this on my mind. With that said, I'm shutting down the repair part of my hobby. What a relief it was to say that. Now I can get back to building shitty guitars for myself and friends. Looking forward doing some small CNC stuff in future as well. Pegheads and inlays to start with.

_________________
Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

I really need to prevail on Mr. Stock to allow me to video or at least do a photo essay on his technique.

He does get the occasional run or excess, but it is quickly wiped off and barely etches the lacquer. A light sanding after the volatiles gas off and a buff avoid any need for lacquer touchups.

If the tacking has gone well, there should not be any tape on the guitar to cause problems wiht the rest of the reglue. The last time I was over at Greenridge, they were doing a D12-35 that had shed all but about 6 inches of back binding... I noticed that the boys had switched to 3M filament tape split into 3/8" wide strips versus paper-based tape for the tacking stage... no muss or bother on that aged lacquer, and CA will not stick to that tape like it can to paper-based tapes.

_________________
For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

Man, do I feel this today. Been there and done that.

Thankfully I haven't been approached about any repairs lately, other than advising a buddy on a bridge reglue.

Two guitar builds should be going to their new owners this week, also.

More time to build my own stuff, and furniture / home items for the wife. Oh and work with my little CNC some more.

Looking forward to this Woodie but I hope it doesn't change my mind about doing repair work. I barely have enough time or should I say, I barely make enough time to work on my stuff. I used to like to get up at 5 and and head to the shop. Now I still get up at 5 but head YouTube. It's getting more and more difficult to be anything but an armchair luthier. I hope that changes when I retire.

_________________
Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

Just be REALLY careful. It is the correct glue. But it will mess up nitro finish.

In the time I was at Greenridge, I was primarily a repair student and - after a time - a junior tech. While I participated in building a dozen or so spec or commissioned guitars while I was there, I was not focused on building to the degree that the build students were, but I did enough of both to understand that build and repair are complementary activities. Building informs repair and repair informs building.

Some of the worst design issues, construction errors, and finish flubs I saw on custom guitars passing through the shop were by builders that had avoided repair work, whether because of the learning curve associated with the activity, the customer and estimating skills unique to that job, or simply an overriding focus on building to the exclusion of anything else. On the flip side of that, I also saw guitars referred to us by other repair people that had no significant experience as a builder, so did not feel competent with the sort of major structural (e.g., retopping or major component fabrication) or large-scale refinish work that we offered.

If I could suggest an exception to your expressed desire to avoid repair work, setup and fretwork were two common tasks where I found that the repetitive nature of repair work was clearly necessary to fix both the core skill set and build experience necessary to recognize and address complex problems. If nothing else, continuing to work setup and fret-related tasks seems like a good idea, as they are critical to delivering a good customer experience and are in my own admittedly limited experience a notably weak area for build-only luthiers.

_________________
For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

When I started I built 4 guitars and then started doing repairs for about 10 years. The guitars I built after the repair experience were much better than those first four, especially in regard to fret work and setup.