Official Luthiers Forum!

I'm sure there are good waterbased finish out there, that is almost as good as nitro, almost.

But having to lower our expectations because it's waterbased, well customers won't know what kind of carrier was used to finish his guitar but if that happened to a customer's guitar, you can bet that customer won't be too happy. And finish problems takes a lot of labor to fix.

That's in addition to the fact that "good" waterbased finish is expensive, very expensive. So seeing all the bad experiences, failed promises, etc. we have with waterbased finish I think people would rather use a tried and true method that won't result in extremely unhappy customer.

For the record, I think the guy used some waterbased finish of a Taiwanese brand hoping to support Taiwan or something, except it didn't deliver. There's just so much research going on with waterbased that you simply don't know what works and what's just a bunch of empty promises. Nitro works well after a few months for it to gas off, and 2k works very well if you're careful and the finish is basically bomb proof. Except it can't be repaired easily.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

First of all, did he even say which finish he used? Second, I suspect operator error at work there. Third, his claim that "it doesn't buff at all" is complete friggin' nonsense. Exhibits A and B: (and I don't even own a buffer)

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

I'm pretty sure it's not EM6000 or anything nearly as advanced. He mentioned supporting Taiwan so I assume it's some noname brand from Taiwan. I bet 90% it's the same old formula that people complained about 15 years ago.

I could tell him to get EM6000 or something but it's far more expensive than a can of nitro lacquer, which in Taiwan is about 10 dollars a quart. And that stuff works almost as well as McFaddens/Seagraves.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I’m VERY new compared to most here, but I’ve done 4 in EM6000. Melts right in . No issues as far as I can tell. I spray it w a $20 gun and a small compressor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It was quite some time ago that I gave up on doing my own gloss finishes, but I had good luck with KTM-SV. The leftover guitar I have still looks good. Looks old, but good...no blue haze

Maybe it's far more expensive there in Taiwan, but a quick look for prices here in the U.S. shows these prices for 1 quart:

EM6000 $23.70

Seagrave nitro $39.34
Cardinal nitro $26.56



How many acoustic guitars can be finished from 1 quart of nitro? One quart of EM6000 is enough to finish two and a half to three acoustic guitars (depending on the body size) for me.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

I probably did at least 4-5 guitars from one quart of nitro that I buy in Taiwan. These nitro came very thick however and had to be thinned quite a bit for spraying.

The 2k stuff, while more expensive, will probably go further because they are also quite thick, and require quite a bit of thinning before you can spray it. That quart kit of 2k will probably do 6 or so guitars.

Shipping to Taiwan will be expensive if I have to order the EM6000. Considering even the 2k stuff don't cost more than 20 dollars a quart...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Y'all are getting a lot more mileage out of a quart of finish than I am, but then I'm paying $39 a - gallon - for ready to spray Mohawk.
I got a deal on a gallon of Enduro-var which several people on the forum recommended so I will give it a try.

Really? Attacking a fellow member is not a way of discussing. I never said they suck. I said Nitro is by far the easiest for the hobbyist. My claim. I mentioned two waterborne finishes. Enduro is the hardest to work with, EMTech is easier, has some repairability. My point was ease of use, repairability. Clearly it is dangerous. But a few precautions will suffice. I'd ask u to edit your post to maintain civility.

Mike

I was not referring to you. That's why I specifically said "guys who tried a single water borne finish" so as to exclude you from the group I was referring to. You said in your post that you had tried several water borne finishes and I recognized that fact.

To clarify further, I also said "person's poor experience with some unspecified water borne finish". You specified in your original post not just one, but two different water borne finishes that you have tried. So clearly I was not referring to you.

You did not say that water borne finishes suck, so again I was obviously not referring to you. The term"suck" appeared in Tai Fu's post showing the headstock finish fail, so again, not referring to you.

Lastly, I referred to a couple guys on the AGF, neither of which are you.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

After reading your post, I took the time to contact our customer for this curly mahogany/flame bloodwood Size 5 tenor and advised him that he would have to reset his expectations based on our choice of finish (Enduro-Var over System 3 Silvertip). I suggested that we might refinish in nitro with a slight delay, but oddly enough, he seemed to have no real problem with a lower grade finish. It may be that his perspiration strips lacquer off instruments in a matter of days, while his Enduro-Var finished SJ which we built just keeps looking grand despite a 60 gig/year schedule.

Seriously, Mr. Fu...I DID try to persuade the gentleman...some people just cannot be reasoned with.







Nut, saddle, and a final buff to go...maybe the customer will change his mind.

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For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

That guitar is a beauty.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Woodie.... play nice. You don't have to be an es say.

Good to see people standing up a bit for waterbased.
There was a post recently saying
and I was the only person who challenged it.
Hearsay and "other" forum posts from people who have little or no experience are not helpful and thankfully appear relatively seldom on the OLF.
Actually my first was finished in waterbased. Floor varnish. Reasoning was it should be tough, resistant, and flexible. Still standing up and looking reasonable after 11 years or so (apart from my mistakes )

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I would be very interested in hearing what specific issues Mr. O'Melia experienced with each of the waterbornes he trialed, as I find that sort of first-hand information regarding negative experiences to be invaluable. This would be useful both in identifying the things we do that appear to prevent the issues Mr. O'Melia has had, as well as procedures he follows which might improve our own outcomes.

Re: my tendency towards essay...I do try, but must bow in my efforts to the past and present master of average post word count, Mr. Breakstone!

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For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

Fact is, waterbourne is expensive to experiment and try.

There are as many different kinds of waterbourne as stars out there, and having previous bad experience makes me disinclined to spend 50 dollars to try a few, thinking that they'll be a disappointment.

EM6000 and KTM sounds great, and with crosslinking is even better. But both of those products are expensive when shipping is factored in.

I feel like in order to sate some of the hate and criticism that I receive here, I must be willing to spend massive amounts of money to buy the most expensive version of some products that SM or LMI offers. Just so I can spend 1000 dollars in materials to build a guitar, and sell it for 500.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

for those who haven't read this yet....https://howardguitars.blogspot.com/2018/06/the-end-of-nitrocellulose-lacquer-era.html

He we are again with repairabilty argument. I would rather have a more bulletproof finish that is more damage resistant than one that is easy to repair. And I do a lot of finish repairs!! To be real about things, a CA repair on a poly surface is actually much easier not to mention quicker than a nitro lacquer repair it's not even a comparison.

From the home builder perspective I would think contamination of your interior environment with all these nasty airborne chemicals would be reason enough to look for something else. Waterbourne has its issues like clarity but most of the witness marks at buffing can be avoided by doing better prep work between coats of clear. Most of you sand too fine at this stage for the materials liking...

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

No one hates you here, Mr. Fu, and misuse of that word as currently employed in the pop culture lexicon diminishes its worth such that it becomes virtually meaningless, or worse yet, a synonym for 'stuff I don't want to hear because I have no ability to present my own competing ill-formed or ill-informed views.'

I do agree that you receive some negative attention re: certain of your posts, but I was under the impression that that was your goal, rather than an unfortunate side effect of your word choices or views expressed.

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For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

The stars must not be properly aligned......
Can't we let peoples unfounded blanket statements go unpunished a little bit? I agree it is better to stick to the facts and personal experience than to regurgitate past arguments that may no longer be relevant but refuting what may no longer be true with such forceful language isn't necessary.
Tai, you mentioned the auto industry's non use of waterborne finishes. The auto (refinishing)industry does in fact use waterborne paints. When a deer hit my car and I had to have some paint work done, the shop used a waterborne product by a well known company, which they assured me was an excellent product and which they guaranteed to last as long as the car, which was good because when it failed after about five years they repainted the car for free. But yes the auto industry does in fact use waterborne finishes.
Still I am willing to try what people on the forum have reported to have good luck with and realize that my indolent nature may not always be accommodated by the availability of nitrocellulose lacquer.
Woodie, I have always appreciated the thoroughness and informative nature of your posts. I hope you will take my gentle chiding in the semi-humorous vein intended. Lately it seems the "Lǎobǎn" is rubbing off on you. Being an es say (S.A.) has nothing to do with word count.

Those of you using water based, what sealer are you using, shellac?

Please mention what finish you are using along with the sealer. Many of you have already mentioned your finish but I think it would be helpful to see both in the same post.

Thanks
Kevin Looker

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I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

I use shellac as a sealer with EM6000 when I need a pore fill I have used Zpoxy - blond shellac - EM6000 or Silvertip - blond shellac -EM6000. Colorwise I like the amber tone of zpoxy with EM6000. I spray EM6000 3 mill wet coats. 15 coats, generally 5 coats a day. I level at the start of each morning. I also tried KTM-SV years ago. I loved its finished look, but I was not really a good enough finisher to use it as a sand through of the finish coat would show as a witness line. The witness line almost goes away with buffering. Em6000 was way more forgiving as each coat burns in to the previous coat. One does need to be careful to keep the wet coat around 3 mils. When spray too thin it results in almost powdered looks texture; too thick levels can still level nicely and not drip but the instrument can have a blue cast. At 3 mils the finish levels really well and looks great and cures in about a week.


The one issue I have with EM6000 is my body chemistry eats the finish on the necks. No one with my instruments have the same issue I have. I also ruin straight shellac. I now do my necks with post catalyzed Royal lac.

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

Downright impressive! Can you be willing to share your finishing schedule?

What I find interesting is the non commonality we all seem to have in our various experiences with these finishes.

For instance, I ditched KTM-9 in favor of KTM SV because I was getting witness lines in the 9 (but not the SV), which was fortunate, as nearly all the KTM9 coated guitars reacted poorly to being touched, yielding a blistered feel after as little as 3-6 months, whereas the SV is still good 9 years later...

No sealer on raw wood for Enduro-Var, and no tie-coat over Silvertip. We are on a fourth application of stripper to remove a two year old Enduro-Var-on-wood neck finish (owner now wants a slimmer neck, after ordering a chunkier one!), so there seems to be no issue with the finish adhering to the wood without a sealer. No adhesion issues over Silvertip that we have seen, or that Mr. Greven saw with the finish in what is now what must be 6-7 years of using that combination.

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For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

I'm using Enduro Var over Zpoxy back and sides, with nothing (self sealing) on tops, although I have used "home brewed" shellac with no problem, which is not supposed to be OK according to GF.

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.