Official Luthiers Forum!

I ran into an article by John Greven that was very informative on many topics and I would encourage you read it if you haven't seen it. There is a lot of good stuff here. Certainly interesting reading... and I feel validated that he also uses Target Coatings, EM 6000.

http://tonewooddatasource.weebly.com/ar ... blogs.html


Voicing the Steel String Guitar (A talk given to the Guild of American Luthiers) John Greven


"I actually use a waterborne, self catalyzing acrylic lacquer from Target Coatings, EM 6000. It has the burn in, high solids, quick build, fast cure-to-buff, easy touch up and most of the physical properties of the old nitro. It takes several weeks to fully de-solvate and harden, but it is a very forgiving finish to work with and safe enough to shoot without venting to the outside air. It can be sanded after 30 minutes and buffed after 24 hours, cutting down finish time significantly."

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Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

Steve,

I pretty sure John is currently using Endurovar over Silvertip epoxy. I haven't had the time or the guts to try the Endurovar yet. I do really like the Silvertip though! I'm also using EM6000.

Thanks for the link, M

Steve as michael said , he has swithched to endurovar.. You can contact him , He convinced me to get the festool sander, it does work as stated and the endurovar for me is easy to apply. I believe he uses a combo of laying it down with a foam brush, and spraying the final coats. His article is posted in a past GAL article . Forgot which one sorry.

In the first article by Tim Mc Knight I ran across this passage:
"I think we share a common desire that we want the completed instrument to sound its best, with the most natural, woody, unencumbered voice. When we tap on a guitar, in the white [prior to finish], that is the voice we want to hear after its finished. Using too much finish or even the wrong finish can significantly change that voice. Its such a fine line that we walk."

Others have stated that they use the finish to improve the sound of their instruments. To which camp do you belong?

Mr. Greven has been using Enduro-Var for at least the past few years.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

GAL, 118, p.18

Mr. Greven's finishing schedule obtained about three years ago shows spray application, but his most recent student has told us that he's switched to Poly-Foam brushes for application. We've been using Enduro-Var for necks and some bodies, and like it...definitely the most lacquer-like appearance of any of the waterborne finishes, so worth the effort to get past the handling characteristics which are such a challenge compared to lacquer. The SilverTip is an improvement versus Z-Poxy, and the absence of concerns with regard to blush or bloom make the material our choice for filling.

My understanding is that Mr. Greven has been an evangelist for waterbornes for decades...even when the materials warranted more consternation than excitement. My guess is that his interest in waterbornes was as much a consequence of his shop's location in the tightly packed suburbs of Portland as it was the results obtained using the materials...I doubt lacquer could be sprayed there without the neighbors noticing and descending into Portlandia-like catatonia.

One comment relayed to me through that former student was that he considered Enduro-Var to be the best of the choices available, and - once the user got over the application quirks - a near perfect small shop finish.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

" - once the user got over the application quirks "

Woodie - Could you elaborate on this?

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Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

" - once the user got over the application quirks "

I'd be interested too. I use EV and find it quite forgiving.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Lacquer is so forgiving in application, allowing wet coats to be applied with few concerns with runs or sags on 3D surfaces. Further, once applied, there is almost no change in the surface tension characteristics of the wet film, so if the finish did not run or sag at application, it's unlikely to do so as the solvent flashes off...hang it and forget it.

With a full, wet coat, Enduro-Var will initially hang, then may or may not sag or run as the material levels and the surface tension appears to decrease. While runs or sag are easy to wipe off once the finish starts to flash, the area still needs to be recoated and will not self-level to the degree that lacquer will. For necks and other components with a lot of verticals, we shoot and then hang horizontal in a fixture that permits 90 degree increments of rotation to discourage runs and sags.



Spraying thinner, dryer coats is one way to avoid the issues with runs and sags, but given we do not sand between coats applied in the same day, wet coats give better burn-in and reduce the number of coats applied.


Perhaps we've become accustomed to the idiosyncrasies and quirks of lacquer to a greater degree than waterbornes, but it still seems to me that Enduro-Var and High Performance Topcoat are significantly quirkier than standard instrument lacquers. Sort of a Hallmark Channel Christmas movie lead versus the Claire Colburn character in Cameron Crowe's 'Elizabethtown'...but in a less nice way.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Any guess how many wet mils you are applying per?

Thanks

For Enduro-Var, 3 wet mils gives 5 coats top and six coat back/sides build...that gets us to about 3.5 mil dry on the top and a little over 4 mil dry on the back and sides after sanding and buffing (21 day cure).

For lacquer, our solids are at about 12%, so 5 to 6 wet mils (85/15 mix will give 6 mil; 70/30 gives 5 wet mil) is the target, and the same 3.5 dry mil and 4 dry mill after sanding for top and back/sides.

And just because I brought up the source of the quote earlier:

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Woodie,

Have you done any full scale testing on the High Performance Top Coat yet at your shop? Just curious to see what you may have thought.

Also, i just spent the last 15 minutes Googling that In Line tape dispenser in your posted pic. I want that!

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Guitar Building = Continuous Improvement Process