Official Luthiers Forum!

Happy new year all. I hope this year is a healthy and happy one.

Mrs Forster and I are avoiding the winter, loafing around in Chiang Mai, Thailand. I'm busying myself with the latest ebook. It's about marketing.

I have a good idea of what works and doesn't work for me, but we're all different, it ain't a "one size fits all."

What marketing challenges/roadblocks are you facing?

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nigel

http://www.theluthierblog.com

Marketing has gone very well for us. The business is multiples larger (repair and restoration) than the music store that was an area staple for 54 years and we are not a music store and only do repairs. As such we don't have that draw of people, attention or opportunities to generate business by seeing more instruments than we do that music stores have.

Instead people who come to us make a deliberate and conscious effort to do so. We also have parking problems in a known high congestion area and two flights of stairs in a historic building limiting some folks who we meet on the front porch when it fits their situation.

Last week we were featured in an article that was seen all over Michigan and remains on the Internet for likely years to come now.

Our "organic" search results are excellent and our web site and Facebook page generates calls and praise every day.

We have only had five star reviews with never any deviation from a five star review with the exception of some political BS from out of state frauds who were never clients, never to our shop, and unless they were the ones phoning in death threats we never spoke with them either..... This is from over 200 reviews too. Five star all the way in real review land!

Me, I'm not proud....

Our classes are a great time for all and we even attract well known builders who have over 300 guitars under their belts.

Next month we launch our mini-apprenticeship program where aspiring AND very experienced Luthiers spend 3 - 5 days with us mostly gaining experience in successful business practices, structure and client interactions. Kind of a "how to not get any on you and keep having fun while making money with Lutherie..." offering. We already have four apprentices lined up for these offerings.

Dave's YouTube channel also generates a goodly amount of business that we usually turn down because we are too busy to accept or deal in shipped in work. We even have to threaten to reject shipments that we do not agree to in advance because people have threatened to do just that..... Stupid threat to make too.... There is no way I would ever send my valuable personal property to someone who said that they would reject it.

Tomorrow morning we are being interviewed live at 8:00 AM peek drive radio time on 107.1 Ann Arbor and you can Google that and live stream it if interested. They called and asked us, we didn't approach them. When I was a kid you might have called this level of positive activity "a happening...."

Our success is apparently notable enough that we are being sought out, not the other way around, to talk about what we do and who we do it for.

Fun times at A2G as we endlessly toil by LED light with sharp chisel and laser guided vacuum clamped saddle mill in hand. Old world meet new world.

Tune in tomorrow to 107.1 Ann Arbor and hear Dave and I make asses out of ourselves.....

It's people's marketing challenges I'm interested in Hesh...

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nigel

http://www.theluthierblog.com

Got it Nick, since I clearly didn't get it the first time and still don't maybe you should consider being a bit more clear of what you're asking for?

Marketing is ALWAYS about people. What part of my post was not about Dave and my marketing challenges?

Thanks...

If anyone has any marketing challenges they'd like to share, I'd be keen to know...

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nigel

http://www.theluthierblog.com

I guess I don't count enough to acknowledge beyond your snotty, full of yourself PM just now?

Thanks and by the way you're welcome.......

You know Nicky I'm going to respectfully beg to differ with you even though others can't see the PM you sent me and how nasty you are....

What part of what I mentioned, webs sites, organic hits, media stories and interviews having apprentices and teaching does not apply to builders? Also what part of being keen.... to measure results, employing metrics and making comparisons to similar and past performances is non-applicable?

Of the top tier builders that I know, personally, all of them do these very same things.

This thread isn't about you Hesh, it's for those who are struggling with their marketing.

If anyone has any marketing challenges they'd like to share, I'd be keen to know...

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nigel

http://www.theluthierblog.com

Question for you Nicky if I may please...

What makes you, Nicky an expert in marketing Lutherie products and services?

I'd be.... keen....to....know.....

And when was the last time that anyone on this forum ever..... started a thread that certain others were not permitted to participate with????

Thanks bro.....

Due all respect Heshy,

the original question was about marketing struggles people may have,
and you answered to it with the usual self marketing you do in every topic.

You are the master in marketing, too, I get it. But is it too hard to understand this topic
was about possible struggles, not about your glorious personal success?


BR,

-J-

Hi j:

The sooner someone such as you.... or Nicky stops misrepresenting what I offered the sooner I will do us all a favor and avoid this thread. It's always on my mind to not pee in the collective canteen.

However Little Nicky.... thought it a good idea to PM me sentiments that would not be appropriate in the full view of others.

To your point what makes you think that all the things that I mentioned were not and do not remain challenging to me? Of course this is not a true question question because I already know the answer. Marketing is not only always about people but it's also always challenging even for folks with decades of experience. That aside no matter what one has been or what they have accomplished what works well from a marketing perspective is as ever changing in some, not all... respects as the hardware that we all viewed and participated on this forum with over a decade ago.

Many of the things that I cited, web sites, press, reputation, publicity and much, much more with quality of offerings/work also being high on that list are always challenging.

Marketing has been described as being on a five year mission to take a product or service somewhere where it has never been before AND with no reliable way along the way to know for sure if you are going in the right direction or making any progress what so ever.

My read of this is that marketing no matter who's doing it including me is always a challenge. And it most certainly is.

No matter I for one never exclude the possibilities that I could learn something even from someone I don't like. Perhaps give it a try you may be as I am surprised with the value received.

I'll repeat I'm happy to stifle myself as to not offend the snowflakes and intend to do so just don't bring me up again, please.

Heshy out (for now)

Hesh,

I will not mention about you anymore, but please let me borrow one word from your answer
because it is quite good it this topic, even if you did not use it in any positive meaning. Snowflake.

I leave myself out of this also, but I happen to know quite a few people, not necessarily all luthiers,
but anyway brilliant doers that are way too shy/modest/introvert to let anybody know about their skills.
I would not call them snowflakes, but clearly some of us are very fragile in many different ways, and then
self marketing can be a real personal struggle. There is no shortage of knowledge how marketing can be done,
in my mind anyways, but many times I have wished I had possessed some psychological skills to help people in person with
issues like that.

-J-

Hesh's post, admittedly a bit of self aggrandizing, does contain hints of "marketing choices"...he should have used different wording to indicate as such.

having read plenty of such posts more info is to be had from the past as opposed to the post in this thread...

choices being made like quality over quantity...e.g. even if a project ends up being an economic "loss" don't send it out until it is right...doing anything less results in bad "press" and of course gives away the fact that a business is only about profit as opposed to properly serving customers (you know, the ones that actually allow the bills to be paid)

statements about positive reviews, organic search results, etc. imply that effort has been spent to garner such accolades...

blah, blah, blah...

IMHO "marketing" is best learned by reading up on massive "marketing" mistakes from the past...kind of like engineering, you evaluate what made something fail and build it better...over and over again ideally.

me?

degree from UCSC in business/economics circa 1986

Excellent post J and I thank you Kindly for it AND I agree with you!

Mike P. thanks to you as well, maybe I am not fully aware how I come across to others? Perhaps some introspection is warranted when I'm not busy making money.

The original question was a good one.

My biggest problem was when the store that did all my sales and marketing closed last May after being an icon in the twin cities for almost 60 years.

I miss the social aspect almost as much as selling guitars. It was a fantastic ride for over 12 years and I am still in a slump. I’ve only built one archtop and focused more on repair. I need to get off my butt and get some builds going. I have some options for sales but have no idea how they will pan out.

One of the store’s long time employees and jazz guitar icon in MN is starting an internet based outlet out of his home. He has a lot of connections. That and my website are about the only plans I have right now. We’ll see.

NK I enjoyed your little treatises, best idea was a floor to ceiling shop cleaning. Found stuff I didn’t know I had and jigs that I had no memory of making and no clue what they were for.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

So, there are some good nuggets in this thread and also some sarcasm.
The "be nice" is being challenged.

As much as I hate to remove a thread, sometimes it becomes necessary to defuse it.
I will leave this thread up but only as long as it begins to trend in a more positive and friendly direction.

Enjoy your Sunday folks!

Lance

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Some marketing challenges are specific to new builders. A major marketing challenge for me as a new builder is getting my guitars into the hands of potential buyers. Web sites are great and all, but I believe that most people prefer to buy a guitar they can actually hold and play first, particularly for acoustic guitars and especially from a new-name builder.

Guitar shows seem like a good way to efficiently get quite a bit of exposure for your instruments. Last spring, I attended my first guitar show as an exhibitor. No sales, but a lot of contacts (some of whom I am still in contact with) and lots of positive feedback from attendees and established builders. I plan to exhibit again at that show this spring because of the exposure. Over two days, a few hundred people looked at my guitars and about a dozen gave them good test drives.

Here's a problem for a new builder as it relates to guitar shows: That show is an outlier in that it is fairly easy to get to exhibit there. The other major guitar shows seem to be pretty exclusive to very exclusive as far as I can tell in terms of who can get a foot in the door. I went as an attendee to a new guitar show in its first year last spring and was told by the organizers that they were only having exhibitors who literally make their living building guitars. So that means fully established builders only, which creates a chicken and egg problem for those builders trying to establish themselves by getting their guitars into the hands of the public.

The general problem is getting in-hand exposure for your guitars by whatever means, and the specific problem is getting your guitars into guitar shows for them to be seen and played.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Wow ... I thought this was going to be a thread about marketing challenges people were having. That would be interesting. Instead it is a thread hijack. Does this forum have a moderator?!

Andy

Andy
Please see my comment above.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Yep, it’s easy to end up with your eggs in one basket. And if the basket goes missing...There are a few things you can do - you’re already repairing so that’s good. Repair is a great way to meet folk, it's the only activilty (apart from teaching guitar) I can think of where people pay to come into your shop. And if you’re any good at repair, you should be able to command a decent rate of pay for your work. You get paid.

When a customer comes in to pick their guitar up, if you think they might like your work - (and you already know what type of instrument they like if you have repaired for them and chatted with them) - you could show them one of yours if you think it’s relevant and better than the instrument they have. Even if they can’t afford it, show them, if they are interested. Can they take a picture? Yes, but only if they promise to post it on their social media and include a link to your website. That’s the deal.

Do you know any guitar teachers Terence? They can be great advocates, even if they don't own or play your work. A while ago I came up with an unusual arch top design:



http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/instrum ... p-guitars/

I got in touch with the only four jazz guitar teachers in my area, I booked myself a lesson with one (I paid for the lesson, learned a lot and got him very excited by the guitar!) I swapped another lesson with another teacher in exchange for a repair (time for time, same result), the other one came around especially to see it (same result - excitement and told everyone), and the fourth one demonstrated a later version of the design in a YouTube video. None of them had the money to buy, I knew that already, but all became enthusiastic advocates of my work, and all have led to orders and sales since.

Yep, I would say - capitalise on the opportunities your repair work brings for sales, get in touch with your local teachers for more face to face contact and in the meantime update your site so in a few weeks you can put it to use. By the time you have, the ebook might be ready.

If you want to talk about your website plans, drop me an email via my regular website.

Best,

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nigel

http://www.theluthierblog.com

Trade shows are another tricky one. I’ve done a few in my time, but in general I’d say they are 1) a poor place for a person to hear what a guitar really sounds like, and 2) very poor value for the exhibitor - they tend to be expensive if you add hotels, travel, lost workbench time and table hire cost together. I have heard of makers who leave shows with order books bulging, but in general this is because they laid the foundations for the orders long before the actual show. Often the show might be an occasion for the maker and player to meet and "seal the deal". Sales in large numbers rarley come out of the blue. Yes, I've sold at shows too, but even when I have, they've been very expensive sales compared to my non trade show sales. True, shows can pay off long term, but so can many other forms of marketing that cost less.

These days I select the shows carefully. Here is how I do it -

I want to know - Who is organising the show, and what is their business? Trade shows make the majority of their income from selling space to the trade. Not from selling tickets to the public. Some shows are great, the organisers target ticket sales over and above selling tables and the trade keep coming back year after year. But when it’s the other way around, shows don’t last. There is no question, trade shows take a lot of organising. But it’s worth understanding the main motivation behind setting up and running a trade show. It isn’t to help your business. It’s to help theirs. The trade show business. Look out for shows run by people who themselves sell instruments. Retailers. They want to stimulate the market - it’s in their interest to sell tickets more than tables.



Research a show well before paying for a slot- ask past attendees their experience - was there a good soundproof demo booth? Was the showroom too loud? What was the footfall, and the demographic? How many other exhibitors this year, how many tickets sold last year?



Write down what you’d like to gain from the show. Sales and orders would be nice - how do you plan to achieve that? A trade show “special offer”? Can you use the evenings to good effect - meet up for a meal with old customers? How about building your mailing list? Print off a QR code so you can direct those with smartphones straight to your email sign up page of your website. Or have it printed on the back of your business cards. Make it easy to sign up. The list is valuable. Do you have a list?

http://www.qr-code-generator.com/

Observe those who you believe to be doing well. Watch and listen. How do they deal with customers and potential customers? How do they make people feel at ease? How do they make them feel remembered? Special? The difference between successful makers and those who just “get by” is rarely down the quality of their work. It’s usually down to branding and personality. How they deal with potential clients.
 and what people say about the maker even if they have never seen their work in the "flesh."

The first few shows I did poorly at because I just didn't give them enough thought, as a result, I was disappointed. These days I'll still do them, but they have to be worthwhile, and preferably somewhere where Mrs Forster and I would like to have a short tax deductable break!

There are a few good alternatives to doing guitar shows, and again, they're in the book ( once I've written it all up). The numbers of folk you'll meet will be less, but so will the amount of competition, and the costs are considerably less. And you'll be able to hear the guitars much better and spend more time with people, getting to know them.

Sorry for the long posts. Hope they help.

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nigel

http://www.theluthierblog.com

To me... If I was making the jump from my current career to building... I think the marketing aspect would be a big challenge...

And I think - not everybody is the same.... One strategy works wonders for one builder.... And flops for the next. Why?

I would be interested in knowing about different marketing strategies that can be aimed at different builder personalities, build philosophies, and how to find the market you are after.

I would be interested in learning about different ways of "breaking in"

Why? I am an engineer sort who doesn't deal with "The Customer" at work.... And so while I get the whole "build it" thing - Marketing isn't near my day job...

Also - I would like to learn about intentional decisions that need to be thought out BEFORE marketing so it doesn't backfire....

For example.... In Hesh's case...
Ann Arbor Michigan... Is that some random choice? I seriously doubt it... Why Ann Arbor?
1. Major university town with a huge music scene and a large potential customer base....
2. A short drive to the Detroit Metro and Winsor Ontario (Giant population)
3. A short drive to Toledo Ohio, and Chicago (Giant population and music scene)
4. It is a place that is very supportive of a "Small town craftsman" sort of theme...
5. Partner Dave Collins - nationally known Luthier who already had an established business...
This is already starting off with the deck stacked in your favor.

It's no coincidence he didn't pick Florence, SC....
1. The music scene is not large and it mostly does not feature guitars.
2. It's surrounded by poor agricultural areas with a low population
3. It's a hike to the nearest big city - and those cities don't have a huge population.
4. There is 1 music store within a 60 mile radius
5. There is no nationally renowned guitar repairman within several hours...
6. The nearest major university is 90 miles away...

As you can see - Florence is an uphill battle... If I was going to start a repair or guitar building business - it would not do it here....

I visited Scott Baxendale a month ago... He is in a very similar suituation to Dave and Hesh - he actually had to pull most of his online marketing because he was getting way too much business... And he employs 8-10 apprentices/journeymen in his shop at all times.... But he is also in Athens, GA (Home of University of Georgia) and about 1/2 hour from Atlanta (1 million + people)

Hey NK those archtops are the goods! Traditional jazz guitar sales seem to be declining as the demographic ages. I think the future of archies is in smaller bodies and innovative designs like yours.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

It's a shame where this thread went, but I'll add my $.02 in the hopes of something better.

As I've posted before, I work with startups/small businesses. That has led me to apply the same discipline I preach to my own little lutherie business --enough to realize I don't have a business. A successful business is where sufficient people pay you enough money for your goods to live and prosper. I have a passionate hobby that pays for itself and a little extra in large part because I really only focus on the "goods" side of the equation. If I were to try to build a real business, it has to start with who these people are and how I you reach them. (How much you charge them, how much they are willing to pay, how do you collect, and what your goods actually,etc., are perhaps are best left for a different post.) Before you can talk about marketing techniques you need to understand who to market to.

Who would ever buy your guitar? That is a really tough question to answer. Is it a professional musician? Is it the casual player? Is it a collector? Would YOU ever buy the guitar you are making at the price you need to charge?

Lots of students in our lutherie program look at the $300-$600 guitars in Guitar Center. They imagine that they will build a better mouse trap at a better price and will and will have no problem selling their guitars to the casual player like themselves. They are excited about guitars and imagine the many ways they can improve on those guitars. They are only vaguely aware of the $5,000 and above luthier guitars, and assume they are cork sniffing affectations for people who don't know the value of a dollar. Then they discover that even with the highly subsidized wood and materials costs building a guitar in the program is going to cost $250 in materials, we use a workshop with $500,000 worth of tools, and take a year of their time to build. It is impossible to build a competitor to a Chinese built guitar and even come close to the Chinese price. Hand built guitars cost around $5,000 and up because it is impossible to charge much less for a hand built guitar and have a business.

So who buys a $5,000 and up guitar? Not a working musician. Not someone looking for a campfire instrument to take on camping trips with the family. Not a working man/woman with a service sector/blue collar day job. Not someone buying their teenager a guitar. Almost by definition has to be someone buying a prestige luxury good.

Next question is who considers a guitar a "prestige luxury good" (and can actually afford them)? What other "prestige luxury goods" are you competing against? I could write a long paper on what questions to ask, but for me the answers has led me to:

1) Wealthy Millennials with tech/finance careers would rather spend money on a $10,000 bicycle than a $5,000 guitar.
2) Wealthy Gen X'ers are nearly non-existant outside Wall Street. Wall Street Gen X'ers spend their money on ostentatious cars and houses. They tend to associate guitars with their teenage years and view them like skateboards or BMX bikes -- not for serious adults.
3) Only wealthy Baby Boomers (especially the second wave who are now 55-65 years old) consider a guitar a "prestige luxury good".

So the question becomes how to reach wealthy Baby Boomers and how to convince them that owning one of your guitars is "prestige" giving? Unfortunately, I find them highly sensitive to corporate branding (Millennials, by contrast, seem enraptured by all things "artisanal").This is the same generation that will spend $50,000 on a 60's Ford Mustang. Not a hand crafted Italian sports car, a mass produced mid level sedan with modest performance stylings.

So what do I see as my marketing challenges?

The first is obviously connecting with wealthy Baby Boomers who are not necessarily in the guitar market. Guitar shows draw guitar geeks like me, but not necessarily people able to buy an expensive accessory. Add to that the cost of attending, and they really are difficult to justify. Where are the people I want to connect with? At music festivals? A jazz show? A food/wine festival? Golf tournament? How do I exhibit my wares in those venues? Haven't figured that out yet.

The second issue is how do I convince people that my handmade archtop guitar is a better prestige item than a Gibson, Fender, Taylor, or PRS? Most potential guitar buyers of a certain generation are totally focused on these brands. This is especially true if you are trying to market only to guitar geeks, who tend to talk about the major brands like kids talk about baseball teams. I will see people rhapsodize over a mass produced Gibson 335. $3500, no problem. They ooh and aaah over a Telecaster. Give them a Taylor with a little extra embellishment and they think they have a Faberge egg. Cover up the logo and they could use it as a door stop. Baby Boomers tend to be very suspicious of anything that isn't branded with a major corporate logo. My approach has been to offer something Gibson does not. But it is still a very hard sell that I have yet to figure out.

The third issue is that father time is catching up to Baby Boomers (sorry, I know it's not fun to acknowledge). The first wave is in their mid seventies now, and generally not buying new toys or accessories. So somehow I have to pivot to Millennials. It is a big challenge because although they are far more open to "artisanal" items, far fewer of them are interested in guitars. Frankly I think I would do better marketing banjos to them. Not many have the disposable income yet for a "prestige luxury good", and those that do are spending their money on Kevlar kayaks and Carbon Fiber SUP's. Although, my instinct is again to find non-guitar events that display artisanal foods/wine/goods. Millennial do seem to love their food/wine festivals. But I don't yet know how to have a presence there.

So, to Nick and anyone, I am happy to hear suggestions or thoughts about all this. How do you connect to Babby Boomers? How do you get passed the Gibson effect? How are you reaching Millennials?

NB: Obviously everything I have said is very heavily slanted to the economy, culture, and demographics of the United States where I live. It may have little or no application to a luthier in the UK, Poland, or Thailand. I understand that; and trust non-US readers will forgive the US centric nature of my musings and take them for what they are.

As far as I know, Nigel still calls himself Nigel (and if you ever meet him, be prepared for a Geordie accent and a lot of laughs).

Lots of constructive contributions coming up. Well done, those people!

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au