Official Luthiers Forum!

I promised not to comment until Eli posted pics or made headway....

At this point I'd have to say that my very first post on this thread was DEAD ON!

For those who don't remember, I said he reminded me of all those kids coming into my shop with legendary egos, and wanting me to dispense my hardwon knowledge to them with one tap of my magic wand.

Eli.... you ain't worth our time. Shuffle on....

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Eli,
It's glaringly obvious you are just some kid throwing a tantrum because you aren't getting what you want. There are lots of great builders here, and I have even had some disagreements with them, but we always keep it pretty respectful. What I told you wasnt smart alec or anything other than the blunt truth. You want to come on here and call us all aholes and tell us how bad we are because you aren't getting what you want, which is for us to find someone who will let you use all their tools for free and hold your hand through the building process. Sorry, it isn't going to happen. Chris V. Freely gives a very good and informative PDF and others on here would have given you all the advice in the world, but I think you have dug your own grave as far as that goes.
And before you go off on a rant calling people idiots or aholes or anything else, remember this, we werent the idiot ahole who bought half the supplies to build a guitar with none of the tools.

I'm impressed. 4 pages and 7 months later. Nothin.

You could wait tables for a week and have enough money to build a guitar.

Kinda strange.

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http://www.tinyhouseandland.com

Incisive observation.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Did a tornado just blow through here?

Hi Eli,

6 months ago I was in the same position as you, in that I had never made a guitar, and I had decided that it was on my bucket list, so away we go. I had ZERO woodworking tools, and my skills pretty well matched that fact. I am however lucky enough to have a father-in-law who has a lot of woodworking tools and machinery, so that's where I started. I also realized that my first build could not be anything more than a learning experience full of mistakes, corrections and the cheapest hardware eBay could supply LOL. I was given a piece of Swamp Mahogany for free from a Sawmill owner, which I was hesitant about using straight up but I decided to go in feet first. For my Birthday this year I was given a chisel set. I'm pretty certain some guys on this forum laughed at me for trying to cut a neck pocket with those, but I did it and got dang close, only needing a router to just level it off and the neck now fits nearly perfectly. I will say though that the cheap-ass hand drill I have is not sufficient, because no matter how square I hope it is, it isn't. I will get a drill-press one day, before I do my next one.

I do not believe what you are hoping to achieve is feasible, for someone with either your or my experience levels, straight up. No amount of planning and meticulous attention to detail can achieve your desired result without the experience to back it up, or the required good quality tools. I also hoped that my ability to think outside the square and use the tools I already had would get me through. How wrong I was. I sincerely hope that you do as Jimmy suggested, which is to stop where you are, ensure you have some good quality equipment to work with, and go from there. I would even suggest you grab a piece of pine and make a dummy out of that. If you can do that first time, then you are cheering and you will feel heaps better about using the good piece of wood. I was crapping my dacks the first time I unleashed a forstner bit into my pup pockets, but now I can't wait to do it again.

The guys in this forum are here because they want to be, not because they have to be. They give their 2c worth because they are asked. And they all know that you should take their advice with a grain of salt. They only person I've felt offended by so far has been you, attacking these guys because their advice felt to you like it was insulting and repetitive. Please, listen to them and go the way forward you think is best and I hope your build goes perfectly for you.

Now... how about those pictures you keep promising? Have a look at my posts if you haven't already and have a laugh at another first timer

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Epiphone LP Studio Dark Wine (wish it was a Gibson)
Ibanez EDP400 Transparent Red Bass
Ashton 12-string Accoustic
Flying V Ukelele Black
Home-made Telecaster Natural Swamp Mahogany Colour


"Never argue with an idiot, those watching may not be able to tell the difference."

For Alan & those who want the highlights reel..

Eli: I want to build a guitar. This forum has too much information I need you guys to paraphrase it for me. Also, I have Melvyn's book.
OLF: Read the book, ask us any questions, read through the forum.
Eli: I'm an ENGINEER - don't treat me like a baby.
[..months pass..]
Eli: I want to build a guitar. This forum has too much information I need you guys to paraphrase it for me. Also, I have Melvyn's book. And I bought all the wood & tremolo, now how can I build it without buying tools?
OLF: It's not that easy, but here's what we suggest...
Eli: You all suck!

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Nice.

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http://www.tinyhouseandland.com

Can't we all just get along...
Seriously, if I ever act like a spoiled child, let me know and I'll have my wife slap me.
By the way, it's only 98 degrees in Central Texas - better get out the Parka.

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

Gosh, now that I look back on the thread I can see how I overreacted a little bit. I've just had people act really rude to me on other forums to the point of just being downright mean. I guess I just took it out on you. I guess I'm just sick of being disrespected. I'm tired of the smart-alec comments. People wording things in a way where I can't directly point them out on it, but to where it still makes a stab at me. I will admit to being in the wrong for insulting everyone on here. There were also plenty of people on here who had nothing but nice things to say so I have to recognize them. But it would be nice if some of you would please admit to being inpolite on some of your posts. I'm sure if we were having a conversation face to face, things wouldn't go misunderstood so easily. Jimmysux's advice following my most previous question was woven with smart comments and it did not seem like real advice to me, just a low blow. It should also be noted that I have no experience at this so my questions may be repeated if I didn't quite understand something. I've droped the desire to create a quality instrument since everyone on here tells me its not possible. But I will try to take my time and make it as good as it can be.

So, you can consider this my sincere apology. I shouldn't have reacted so harshly.

I did cut out the template from lexan today for cutting out the shape of the body. It looks pretty nice. I can post pictures if y'all want.

Go for it, dude!

Rock on, then.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Let's see it dude.

Eli
An electric is much easier to build and a more realizable goal than say someone who starts off building a jazzbox ala Benedetto, or even an acoustic ... so its not inconceivable that you can build a nice (even quality) electric... especially seeing as there is so much information out there, how to's, and step by step build logs on forums such as this... and others..
I see plenty of first electrics that put my first effort to shame, thats for sure.
If you find a woodshop with tools somewhere in your area - Im sure you'll find someone who knows how to use them along with it, who can help you out..
Even if you sign up for a woodoworking course.. you might be able to tell the person running it that your goal is to build a guitar.. they might be right into it.. I hear of it happening all the time..
That way you'll be able to have a shop full of tools, and a guide through the process, all for the price of a course!
Usually they arent that expensive and are offered at community colleges or high schools in the evenings..
its worth a try and if it works youll be able to find out if your really into building instruments without laying out for a slew of expensive tools, jigs etc... if you find you are really into luthierie....
Well, then Im afraid you'll find yourself in our predicament... Tool and Wood Acquisition Syndromes
And thats a nasty piece of business friend
Cheers
Charliewood

Ok then. I'll post some pics soon as I can get them on my PC.

Let me clear up the whole engineering thing. I'm not an engineer. I'm a student of engineering. I just call myself an engineer beacuse its my chosen profession. As of right now I'm just a snot-nosed college kid who can't afford the down payment on a free lunch. I'm also a musician, and in a lot of cases musician=butthole. At least it does in my case. But I do try to submerge myself into projects that require engoneering skills.

Okay, here goes my first question as I have come to it during the build: What I've done so far is use a strat body that I already have to trace and make an outline onto some lexan to make a template. It is cut out exact because I measured it and re-measured it. Can I just use this to cut out the body? I haven't made top or bottom templates yet because I don't have all the hardware yet. I also haven't drawn any plans because I don't have any A0 paper.

You know what Eli, I bought a CNC machine that will be here in about a week and a half, and I have some double humbucker strat files I can use to make some templates, as soon as I figure out how to use all this, that being the key phrase, I will cut the templates out and send them to you, all free of charge.
In the meantime, keep working on your template.

Nice to see you've reconsidered.
I think when it comes to first builds, there are two basic approaches: hack some bits of wood together into something that looks and sounds like a guitar, or carefully consider each step and slowly and carefully complete it. I chose the first option.
First builds do vary hugely in outcome. For example, we have this:

(mine)

And we have this:

(Virgil's)

I think my initial reaction may have been caused in part by my own experience. I think you have a reasonable chance of making a quality guitar. I still think top notch was a bad choice of words, but quality is more realistic.

To answer your question, a popular course of action is to cut the body out with a little space outside the template, and use the template with a router & bearing bit to match it exactly. I personally, haven't used that method, but that is because I build to my own designs and don't care too much about the exact shape.

Jimmysux, that sounds awesome! I'd appreciate that.

Do you guys think I'm in over my head trying to make a high-quality san dimas? If I take my time and do it step by step and try to be careful?

Also, I don't want to overload y'all with questions, but I was wondering about paint. I want to paint the guitar half royal blue and half silver. I like the glittery finishes if anyone knows what I'm talking about. How do you get that finish?

I think you can build any guitar you want to build, it's just a matter of complexity. I'm building my first guitar right now and although I'm quite happy with how it's turning out there are times where I lament not choosing an easier design with fewer design elements. I've spent hour upon hour scouring the internet for information before I've tried anything that I'm not familiar with and it has really paid off. The times I've gotten into trouble are when I've tried to freestyle things, so avoid that if at all possible. I'm sure you can make a fine guitar, I would say take your time, do your homework, ask for help when you don't know what you're doing, and try things on test pieces. I'm on my first guitar but I've been a woodworker for 16 years and there is a ton of stuff I've had to learn that my previous experience did not prepare me for at all. Don't be afraid to take a step back from time to time, and re-evaluate your expectations and your timeline. The absolute last thing you want to do is to not finish or end up with an unplayable instrument so make sure above all else that you are comfortable with taking on the design you desire in the finished product.

As far as the paint, it sounds like you are talking about a metal flake finish. (Kind of like an old 1970's drum kit or motorcycle helmet?) You can buy metal flake from auto paint supply houses along with the special metal flake guns used to apply it. Here's a link to just such a store http://www.tcpglobal.com/kustomshop/ksflake.aspx.

I don't have any experience applying this kind of finish though I think the basics are you apply a colored base coat and then either a lacquer or poly finish and while it's still wet you dust it with the metal flake, (not really metal it's plastic but it looks like metal). Then lots of topcoats go on until the finish is thick enough to level.

You'd have to learn about proper masking techniques if you're going to do this as well as all of the prep, spray techniques, chemical properties and then sanding, and polishing of the finish after it's been applied. The finishing is an art all to itself.

What you'll find is that there are many aspects to guitar building that in and of themselves could be considered very specialized. Depending on the complexity of the guitar it may involve wood sculpting, inlay, metalsmithing, technical drafting, computer programming, pattern making, finishing/painting, soldering. Each one of these disciplines is going to take time and practice, (as well as money and wrecked materials) to master. Some of these things can be done by someone else for a fee as well and there's certainly no shame in having a professional step in with something you're overwhelmed on. It might be a good idea to really hone in on exactly what you want the guitar to include, but before you commit to something that the overall function of the guitar could be compromised by, try to do the things you'll have to to complete these elements. If you find yourself not having the patience or skills to accomplish these just yet, try and focus on the things you are comfortable with.

Be patient, be pragmatic and don't beat yourself up if you can't do everything right every time. I'm sure you'll do great!

A strat with a floyd rose is not at all hard to build. But I say that having experience and am comfortable with using my tools. My first guitar was a DISASTER. Doesn't mean yours will be, I mean look at Virgil's first guitar, he did better with his first build than I have with any of mine. Filippo and Chris make some really nice guitars as well, what they do with wood binding is awesome.

However, I wouldn't suggest getting too involved until you get the right tools. I know that isn't what you are wanting to hear or read, but you should at the very least have a router table, router, and template bits.

When I first started I had a router table, plunge router, a 9" bandsaw, a tabletop drill press, and a DA sander. That was it. I was able to build a guitar, but it wasn't as easy as it is with the bigger stuff.

As time went on and I got more serious about it, I decided to get more things, now I barely have room to walk in my little shop because it's full of tools, and I just got them a little at a time as I could.

Don't be afraid to check craigslist for some of the stuff, I got my 14" bandsaw and my 22-44 JET thickness sander off there, as well as another router and some router bits.

For example I scored that JET 22-44 sander for 500$, they're 1800$ retail. I got my 14" JET bandsaw with the riser kit and a ton of blades for 350$, all of that would have been well over 1000$ retail.

After a quick google search for a san dimas guitar, I would say that seems like an excellent choice for a first time builder. There's gonna be some extra figuring for the tremolo system and locking nut but you shouldn't need a neck angle and the body is relatively simple. Make sure before you cut anything you get your hardware, it really helps to have the real thing to see how it will fit on the guitar. Best of luck!

I usually don't recommend that people shoot for the ultimate guitar their first time out. Let me tell you why with an example that happened to me yesterday. I had a big piece of wood blow out of my headstock when I was routing it yesterday. 3 or 4 years ago, when I first started seriously building from scratch, this would have been a major problem for me and I probably would have trashed the neck and started over....and it would have completely demoralized me. Now, with a lot more experience under my built, I grabbed a chisel and made a V notch underneath the headstock veneer. Then I grabbed a matching piece of mahogany, cut a rough V on the bandsaw, cleaned it up with a hand plane and did a chalk fitting to the notch I had in the headstock. Once I glued that in, I carefully made a strategic cut in the mangled veneer edge to follow a grain line, found a matching piece of veneer, fit that and glued it in place. Then I grabbed a draw knife and cut that bit of the headstock by hand, and then blended it all in. All this took me maybe an hour or two and the little screwup is now absolutely invisible. My wife saw the before and after, and it's so invisible that she couldn't even remember which side the blowout was on.

Little things like this, and other set backs, are bound to happen. They happen to everybody. As you get better, you start to see the larger mistakes coming and you start making smaller mistakes. Then you start getting very good at fixing the smaller mistakes. When you're first starting out it's very easy to make relatively large boo boos, and it's easy to get discouraged and walk away from the project because it's difficult to make an invisible fix and you start feeling like it's all a waste of time because it's not perfect anymore. To avoid all of that I usually recommend that the goal for the first guitar is to get something...anything....strung up and playing. Just go through the process one time from beginning to end. It takes all the pressure off. There are a lot of guitars out there that have been started but never finished. I think it's really important to finish that first one, no matter what.

So you might build a world class guitar the first time out, but I don't think it's important that you do, and I don't think it's important if you're in over your head or not. You'll find out soon enough one way or another! I do think it's important that you don't let your vision get in the way of actually finishing the guitar.

I chose the san dimas mainly because they look a little more "rock'n'roll" than a plain old strat. But in reality they're nothing more than a plain old strat. Actually less if you think about it. They seem like a relatively easy guitar to build. Plus, I want to make a guitar I would play live. I don't really care for wild and crazy guitars. Simplicity does it for me. Now, I do want to get a little wild with the paint scheme, make something that stands out. At this point I'm thinking about just buying templates that are already cut out. Making this template has been tough. It might be easier if I actually had big paper to draw plans on and measure things exact.

You could also try and find some strat plans online. You should be able to get them pretty cheap, they'll be full size so you can take measurements straight from them and it'll give you a good baseline. The changes you'd make would be largely cosmetic like changing the headstock, but you'd also have to tweak the pickup routs to suit your setup. ( A set of strat plans would probably just have a slot right through the top for the pickup wires, that would be covered by the pickguard).

I think you might save yourself a lot of trouble if you shell out the $20 it'll probably cost. It'll give you an instant understanding of the relationship between all the pieces rather than you trying to figure all of it out on your own.