Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi folks,
I am very interested in which way different types of glues affect the sound / stability of a guitar. There are obviously different opinions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoHrSXklhe8 (Part 1)
(featuring Paul Reed Smith (Virginia), José Romanillos (Spain), TJ Thompson (Massachussetts), Jörg Tandler (Germany), Bernd Martin (Spain)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6iSvL2McYM (Part 2)
I appreciate your opinions.

Cheers,
Holger

I noticed that nobody came right out and said 'hide glue does X to the sound'. I did find it funny that the one dude really worried a lot about getting stuff together in time with hide; I'm sure there are quite a few luthiers who can slap a set of braces on in under 30 seconds.

I prefer hide glue for its working properties, but I think the quality of the joinery is much more important than the adhesive used. Hide does have the advantage that it forces one to make pretty good joints. I'll forever be in the 'I'll believe it when you prove it with a double blind test' camp when it comes to tonal effects.

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Nice videos Holger! Keep em' coming!

Bob nailed the real importance of impeccable joinery over that of any glue. But assuming that we have achieved the first priority of impeccable joinery, I can say that there are distinct advantages of HHG over any of the modern glues. The key issue for me is the issue of creep. The animal glues, both HHG and Fish glue achieve a hard and crystalline property once set. Modern glues containing vinyl groups are amorphous and soften and plasticize over time at moderately high temperatures (over 100*F). And when they soften, they're bound to slip (creep) especially if they are loaded in tension.

I've used HHG exclusively for 7 years and more recently fish glue. I'm sold on its performance as well as its ability to draw joints together as they dry. I believe that it's much simpler to use than was characterized by TJ Thompson in the video, but then hyperbole and mystique about HHG has always made for a good marketing message. Julius Borges had a good point about the nature of a HHG joint verses that of a synthetic joint. It just looks superior when done right. As far as electrics and the PRS input, their assembly issues differ significantly from acoustics and HHG would not be practical. Finally, the opinion of a classical builder such as Romanillo must be given additional weight. After all, the old world guitars and their tone and performance are the very goals we have been trying to emulate for some time. Tradition definitely has its place for consideration as far as I am concerned.

As far as tonal differences are concerned, I believe that theoretically, HHG should transmit sound better than a non-crystalline material but I do NOT claim that there is a discernible difference that my ears can detect.

So, in keeping with the tradition of this and other fora when HHG is discussed, there will follow a number of other opinions on this and every other glue known to woodworkers. Let the debate begin!!!

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I think the major preference for using hide glue is future repairs. Hide glue is way easier to get to come undone then titebond or any other typical wood glue.Some will swear that it makes a guitar sound better but the only proof they have of this is vintage guitars that used hide glue. There are a whole lot of other factors that need to be taken into consideration before we can declare hide glue as the reason these vintage instruments sound the way they do.

I did a test years ago using identically sized maple blanks cut from the same board. I re-sawed & surfaced 3 blanks & dimensioned the 4th so that it matched the other 3. Then I glued the three pairs back together using Franklin hide glue (yeah I know it's not the same as hot hide), G2 epoxy, polyurethane & titebond I. The taptone of hide glue & epoxy had the most ring & sustain (seemingly even more than the solid comparison piece). Polyurethane was a close second while Titebond I had noticeably less sustain and damped highs. After a week the Titebond almost matched the others. I attribute this to titebond needing more time to cure/dry out.

This topic always comes up. For acoustics Sheldon hit it on the head a hard glue able to transmit sound.

For an electric who really knows. I know people who swear by epoxy so much so they should be working for the manufacturers. I for one like a simple original titebond for electrics. One its cheap, been used for many years and can be repaired down the line. As for sound qualities the door is open for anyone to actually make a study on glue and the electric guitar.

Some people feel too many glue joints kill the electric sustain but look at the Gibson SG Zoot Suit almost nothing but glue.

I would worry more about what pickups I would be putting in an electric guitar rather than worring about the dampening of vibrations through glue joints on an electric.