Official Luthiers Forum!

hi!

i'm trying to create, with no success, some kerfing like kevin ryan's A4

does anyone know the measures (width, thickness of mahogany, GRAIN DIRECTION!, depth and thickness of cut.. distance should be .070 on neck side .100 on tail side)?

thank you.

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everything you know is wrong

He's using the laser to cut the stuff, so the cuts are probably quite thin, but he has loads of them in there. It's also sliced on more than one axis. I don't think you could make the stuff any other way other than using the laser or a very high-speed saw or spindle with some really rigid fixturing, it's just too fragile.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Seems to me that Mr.Bruce Dickey was showing some kerfed linings he was working on a while back that was flexible in all directions. I don,t recall he used a laser to cut his, although he didn't get into the process of making them. This was before the A4 was posted on the forum I believe.

He might chime in about how he makes them,if he still does. I wouldn't mind knowing how to make them myself.

Nah, I don't make 'em for sale, just revealed how.

http://dickeyguitars.com/dickeyguitars/JigsToolsLinings.html

http://dickeyguitars.com/dickeyguitars/JigsToolsLinings.html

There is some other stuff of interest there too.

http://dickeyguitars.com/sitebuilder/images/2006-07-11_13041 4_IMG_0009_Small-600x450.jpg

Modified Reverse Kerf Linings

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Hmmm, must be getting old....

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Here's the Ryan A4 kerfing on one of my guitars. Very thin kerf that would be almost impossible to do without a laser cutter....

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

that's some cool stuff Peter

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Bolix, I was able to get a look at the A4 lining at the ASIA Symposium in May.  Eyeballing it it looked like the 'cuts' were about .200 to .250" apart.  On the opposite side they were the same, but staggered so every cut was about .100 to .125" from the other sides 'cut'.

Kevin is a very nice guy who was more than willing to share info with anyone who asked.  I bet if you gave him a call or shot him an email he'd be more than happy to point you in the right direction to make you own.

As peterm has previously posted Mr. Ryan is also selling this now, so you could even order some to try or use as a model for your own.  IMO the benefit of this was to keep more traditional linings from breaking when Mr. Ryan was gluing the linings into his back which, I believe, has a 7 foot radius.

Kevin Ryan is not selling his linings....YET. He may at some time. We'll see....
Do be reminded that the A4 Kerfing has a patent on it and while Kevin is a great guy and always eager to help, there must be a reason for the patent....

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I thought the patent would make interesting reading but couldn't locate with a search.

Nelson, I'd like to see a patent too if there is one. Those things are cool in all their claims and explanations. Lots of legalese.

Having researched a few items over the years, I just can't see that a saw kerf in a piece of wood would be patentable? I could be wrong. Still, the material produced and shown in Peter's guitar is pretty cool.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

[QUOTE=Bruce Dickey]
Having researched a few items over the years, I just can't see that a saw kerf in a piece of wood would be patentable? [/QUOTE]

Well, the fluted bevel is also patented.... how can one patent a few holes??

I don't think its a matter of kerfs or holes, but a design issue... he came up with the idea, the concept and the tools to make it. Thats the patent, if someone else makes the same thing, in essence they are copying his idea.

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Oh, design patent, is that different from a regular patent? I think it is.

You are referring to his arm rest bevel with sound ports?

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

I'm wondering if we are making this too complicated. A simple mod to regular kerfed lining (Kerfing ) allows it to bend as shown.
Nelson

After again reading Bruce's post and studying the pictures I see that we're doing basically the same thing with two different types of kerfing.

When I spoke to Kevin at the last ASIA Symposium, he said he had just submitted a provisional patent application. That means that an actual patent is at least a couple of years away.

I think his idea is patentable as a utility patent, not a design patent. Kerfing both sides of the strip is a novel idea that provides useful and unobvious results.

Mark

Is Kevin's design intended to function as a conventional lining as well as a reversed lining? It seems that it wouldn't be the same as a "conventional" reversed lining in that the surface to the inside of the guitar would not be solid.

I helped a friend work on patenting some of his ideas. Once you get into the work of finding out what has gone on before, it's likely to see your precise idea was done before and sometimes in multiple ways, but the same effect.

After that one foray into patents it educated me that getting a patent may not even be possible. When you think about kerfing, all types, we get down to the basics that it is wood with cuts or kerfs in it. Some like Reverse Kerf have an outer binding which is a lath in a rabbit.

The ability to bend linings into the curvature of our domed tops and backs is needed, and cutting the webbing of kerfed linings vertically will free it to bend as you found Nelson. It's not rocket science at all, and whether you cut with a laser, or a circular fret blade or a 7 inch Diablo doesn't matter much except in the look.

Of course I'm all for Kevin getting a patent and selling the fool out of this stuff. It's the American way! (sorry all you lurkers out there who may not be capitalists)

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Kevin passed a sample of his laser kerfed lining around the class during his ASIA lecture and it certainly looked and felt quite cool.   
I would have to agree with Bruce at this point, however, that it may be just a nice exercise in laser application.
I may be wrong. I was one other time.
I mean no disrespect to Kevin or this application, he is one cool guy.

Olivier
Back to your original question, this may be a way to accomplish what you're wanting. It's simply a piece of plastic binding embedded into the strip to let it flex in all directions.
Nelson