Official Luthiers Forum!

Greetings OLFers!  I’m new to the forum and new to lutherie – well that’s not wholly correct, I did start a classical guitar in high school but over the summer the family dog thought the neck blank looked like a pretty good bone and chewed it up ending my entry into the world of guitar building.  That was over 30 years ago so I guess it doesn’t really count!  I have been wanting to get back to this for a long time now and have taken some steps to get on with it.  I’m very excited about the journey ahead.  First, I will be spending some time with Tony Karol of Karol Guitars next year as one of his students.  Second, and the real point of my question, I have started preparing my shop, assembling my tools and researching some of the staple jigs I might be needing.  I want to build a 24” thickness sander over the winter and I am torn between which direction to go.  Possibly some of you on the forum who have shop built thickness sanders have some insights to share?

I have researched the forum and other areas on the web and have identified 3 versions of sanders: one is a sled feed; one is the Shopnotes belt feed (manual crank or converting to a power feed); the other is based on the Kuster Dyna-Sand powered roller feed.







Question 1:  From a luthier’s perspective is there a preference for a sled versus belt or roller feed?

Question 2:  If I were to go with a power feed design which is better, the Shopnotes design with an abrasive conveyor belt or one similar to the Dyna-Sand design with powered feed rollers which apply pressure on the work piece from above?

Question 3:  With regards to the conveyor belt approach does anyone know a source where I would find a belt wide enough (i.e. 24”)?

Thanks for your insights and help.  This is a great forum and I look forward to spending a lot more time here in the future!

Cheers

Rick
 

Rick,

Welcome!

I can only offer totally non-helpful (or non-conclusive) answers. After considering the same questions for a while, I pondered the use of an extra paycheck with a bulge in it and purchased a Delta 16/32. I was going to build a wider version of the Shopnotes sander if I hadn't bought the commercial unit. I was worried about the horizontal stability of the vertical adjuster for the bed, though, particularly if i went with a wider unit, and wasn't sure what I would do to fix this if I went this way.

Jim

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I would advise sucking it up and buying or leasing an 18" WoodMaster or one of the Jet or Performax machines.   What it gets down to is this: Do you want to be a tool maker, making tools that are easily bought or leased, or do you want to be a guitar maker?   As a guitar maker, you have plenty of tools, jigs, and fixtures you'll have to make anyway.   From my point of view, it's better use of your guitar making time to build guitars.   Do you see opticians making their own machines to look into your eyes? Do dentists build their own drills?   

If guitar making is a side line to your just wanting to futz around in a shop, then make everything. You can even get plans to make your own table saw, band saw, etc.   But if you are burning to be a guitar maker, then only make what you literally cannot buy, and get busy making guitars.   

If sanding parts is a big issue, rent time on a Timesaver at a cabinet shop.   You can do a year's worth of tops, backs, and sides in about 30 minutes...and that's if your're going to build one a month.

I've just come down the road you are on Rick, I built a drum sander which was a rough approximation of the top sander in your post.  It worked great for a short while, but slowly came out of balance and became unusable.  Especially if you are going wide enough for guitar backs, I would buy something, or follow Rick's advice and get enough wood for a few guitars and do it at a cabinet shop. 

If you really like building tools, be sure to use a large shaft ~1".  Mine was 5/8", and I think that was part of my problem.  I would also consider buying the drum, rather than making one.  You can get it as a part from Grizzly for sure, and maybe Delta or Jet (Performax).

Building guitars is way more fun in my book....

[QUOTE=jtkirby] Rick,

I pondered the use of an extra paycheck with a bulge in it and purchased a Delta 16/32.
Jim


[/QUOTE]

I meant Jet (Performax) Edit?? Edit??

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Rick-
I`ve got a homemade thickness sander (no feed- Arm-strong method) and it works OK- just OK. I already had the motor and a lot of the other parts for the sander I built, so I saved quite a few dollars.
However, with the BusyBee sander selling for $1600 these days (power feed, 3HP, etc etc) that`s the route I`d recommend for you. You could be building guitars a lot faster, with a better tool for thicknessing.
The Performax and clones are even cheaper, if you are short on space.
Cheers
John

Rick-
Welcome to the OLF!

hey Rick .. cool you have found us !!!

My sander is a shop built 18 incher, sled driven, built off the Laskin/Wren FWW article about 12-14 years ago, when cheaper machines like today didnt even exist as far as I knew. Works pretty good, but like anything, its sometimes temperamental, and needs the odd adjustment. That said, its built a few nice guitars

the real mccoy is definitely in the future though ... then I will likely make this one smaller, like say 8-10 inches wide, and keep the side 12 inch disc I have on it too.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Mine's a home made 22" sander, hand fed, and I like it very much. I've only built 5 guitars with it, but it has worked flawlessly for me. I made the bed from two layers of 3/4" MDF and it is very rigid. I have a 1 1/2hp motor and a 4" drum turned from pine and use velcro backed sandpaper rolls. I build for MY pleasure and I think it will last as long as I do.







Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

I built my first couple dozen guitars doing just what rick suggested; renting time in a cabinet shop on a machine. Also used their bandsaw for many years. I let the instruments buy the tools...


That said, when it came time for my own sander, I built it. What i did was take what I liked and didn't like with the cabinet shop's(a Performax Super 25) and designed mine around that. It's all welded steel construction(oldest brother's a welder and has his own shop <g>)
 and the 5" steel drum, shaft and pulleys were made by a machinist friend who is a great fiddler and happened to need a lot of work done to his violin. Love the barter system...

When it came to the power feed, I decided to just buy a unit and be done with it. I could have made that part also, but what the heck; had to draw the line someplace. Shopped around and found the complete power feed for a , drum roll please, Performax Super 25(no, not the cabinet shop's). That was over 7 years ago. Zero maintenance or repairs since then, and it's accurate to .002" or better across the entire width. Looks a bit rough and crude(I never even painted the frame, etc...), but it's a workhorse. Ad even with my tme counted, it was a bargain.

Point being, home made can be well made, also. If you can cobble one together using wood, just do the same with steel, and if you can't weld, find a kid with a stick welder and a free afternoon...
 These wood jobbies pictured above scare me.... Especially the lack of power feed, which must force you to get your fingers way too close for my likes.

For me, when it was time for a "real sander" I lease/purchased a WoodMaster 24" wide machine with a 5 hp head and a separate variable speed feed motor.   I think it wound up being less than $75.00 a month, so the machine was quite literally paying it's way, and the lease payments were a tax deduction...no depreciation, no hassles.   And then after 3 years, the machine was mine, all mine with a $100.00 buyout.   Then when it was time to get a real machine...a 43" wide Halsty with a 20 hp head and also variable speed feed, I sold the WoodMaster for close to what I had into it, and that easily made the first payment on the big machine.    And then the Halsty literally paid for itself and is now paid off.   The same "pay for itself" formula bought me my 20 hp Baker resaw which was saving me $400.00 a month in walnut set costs and costing me $400.00 a month in deductible lease payments.   All three lease/purchases were no-brainer business decisions.   

It's very different for a hobbyist where the building of machines is a pleasure center in itself, but I can't afford to be a hobbyist at shop building and guitar making at this point in my life.   Someday...

Build, buy or rent time on a machine. I guess it all comes down to your budget, how many guitars you plan on building and whether you would enjoy making your own machine. I like the machine from the first picture shown in your post.

I build my own -- I purchased a 25" - 5" diameter drum from General Montreal at their wearhouse in Montreal together with the matching bearings/pillow blocks. It works fine for the number of guitars I will build.

If you live close to Tony's -- you'll be amazed at how much help or thickness sanding he'll do for a nice bottle of red or a good six pack of that imported beer he likes

I have a Kuster, like the bottom picture. I bought it used. Works decently, but can be temperamental. Mostly that's due to the wear and tear on the feed rollers. I think if I had to do it all over again, I would save a bit more and get something better. If I had an unlimited budget, I would buy a wide-belt sander. So much for that...

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Rick Turner]

If guitar making is a side line to your just wanting to futz around in a shop, then make everything. You can even get plans to make your own table saw, band saw, etc.   But if you are burning to be a guitar maker, then only make what you literally cannot buy, and get busy making guitars.

QUOTE]

Wow, now if that isn't a gem of a quote, there isn't one. I'm printing this out and posting it on my shop wall today. Thanks Rick for the kick in the pants! bd

_________________
http://www.dickeyguitars.com

  I hear ya Rick, but some of us don't need, have the room, or even the power for a 43" wide, 20hp machine <g>

  While a "little" machine like mine would have paid for itself quickly enough, all the available ones had details/issues I didn't like, so if I'm going t modify a $3,000 machine, I may as well build it. All said, I hae less than $500 in mine, including all bearings, the feed, motors(2hp Baldor), and what the boys charged me for materials and/or their work. Even counting my violin repair time(part of the bartering), and then my own hand's on time building it(about 4 hrs. total), and the requisite beer payoff, I still made off with at least a $2,200 savings. And it's built the way I thought the other's should have been.

That paid for my Unisaw....

   Not arguing, just presenting another view. I'll admit to having good resources nearby; brother's welding shop is 1/2 mile down the road here, other brother's cabinet shop is next door, and the machinist/fiddler is a couple miles away(he's also a framer and we get a lot of our meats and sausages from him <g>). Those guys are very resourceful and think on their feet very well, so presented with an idea, they'll often also take it to a new level. I had also studied to be a machinist at one point, so machinery making isn't new.
    Point being, if the resources are there, there's nothing wrong with using them.

Rick,
I'm with Rick T. on this issue. If you can afford to buy a sander do it. A few years back I bit the bullet and purchased a 38" woodmaster. At the time of purchase, my intended use was sanding cabinet face frames but I have found soooo many uses for it that I really could not part with it. If you ever want to work with highly figured woods, a good sander is the way to go. I saved so much wood that would have been messed up by the planer (due to tearout), it has paid for itself.... not to mention the depreciation my accountant applies toward it annually.
Good luck,
chris

_________________
Chris Oliver
Infinity Luthiers
...in the shop.

live every minute...

The thing I forgot to mention is that while it would be great to be able to rent time on a sander somewhere, there's just nothing like having one in the shop. It's been my most useful tool I think. I can't imagine working without the sander, table saw, bandsaw, and jointer. And drill press and router table. And edge sander. And buffer, and....well you get the idea. It's good to have all the tools you need. I like General Grumpy's idea about letting the instruments pay for the tools though. That's smart.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Thanks so much for the feedback folks!  I have to admit that at this point my interests are from a hobbyists perspective.  Maybe someday it could evolve into a serious full time enterprise but for now I need to walk before I run.  Many of you have suggested the 'buy' route for various reasons and I have to agree, I would rather spend my time building guitars rather than making tools but right now I don't believe I could make it pay for itself.  Ask me in 2-3 years, I might have changed my tune by then (he said optimistically!).  But right now I think I need something that helps me get underway.  I had not thought about renting time at a shop ... something for me to give some serious consideration to. 

If I do decide upon the build route there are a couple of specific questions I have:

Grumpy - the Performax Super 25 feed that you referenced, was that the entire conveyor belt assembly?

Tony - I've seen your sander in action, I thought it was wider than 18"? For lutherie purposes is 24" overkill? - Do you know if the Laskin/Wren plans are still available?  Is 'FWW' the Fine Wood Working magazine?

Gabriel, not so much a question as thanks for the heads up on the diameter of the drum shaft.  I was contemplating a 3/4" shaft and I think with Ron's suggestion of doubling the thickness of the table bed to 1 1/2" I think any concerns about flex in the drum would disappear.

And Anthony, I am closer than Tony might like!  I may have to stock the wine cellar up ;-)

Thanks again everyone!

Rick

was that the entire conveyor belt assembly?

yes.

I got the big machine...the Halsty...because with one that big I could rent time out to local cabinet makers to run doors and face frames through it, and also we can run tops and backs side by side. As I recall, going from the 25" machine to the 43" one was only about a 15% difference in price. Coincidentally, in the first three years of having it...the years the lease ran...we did rent it out quite a bit at $60.00 an hour, and the income stream did indeed make a nice chunk of the monthly payments.

Now that I'm looking at setting up a small shop in Tasmania for use several times a year, what looks good is either a Jet or a Performax in the 25" wide single pass style.   That and a really good dust collector.

I'm really at both ends of the spectrum now...big shop, big tools, tons of 480 three phase power, etc., and setting up a very small shop starting from scratch. To finance the small shop, I'm "thinning the herd" of vintage instruments I've collected, and my decision is to buy the best tools I can get (within reason) in the size class I need. A wide sander is probably not on the first round list because I can prep tops, backs, and sides here in the 'States and just send them over.   And that is very much like renting time on a local cabinet maker's sander and doing your run of a year's worth of parts in a couple of hours and getting on with the process of actually building guitars.

In response to the original question: the pressure roller feed will be more prone to sniping.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Taliban pressure rollers...

Howard, would you care to explain that a bit? How so?
I would have thought snipe was more due to an out of round drum or a flimsy table than pressure rollers. Seems to me that the rollers would provide a measure of insurance against snipe.
On the other hand, with worn rollers like I have (which serve a dual-purpose of both downward pressure and feed), some serious snipe can happen. Or should I say "happens". Sometimes the rollers can get coated with sawdust and they will slip on the wood rather than pushing the wood through, and the wood will get stuck under the drum. With any degree of flex in either the table or the drum/shaft, getting stuck under the drum will end up chewing a nice long divot in the wood.
Is that what you meant?

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

It takes a lot of pressure to feed the work from a single line of contact (a roller) as opposed to a belt feed. The workpiece rises up when it leaves the roller, causing the drum to take a deeper cut.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Snipe control is the reason why industrial strength planers have a pressure bar and a chipbreaker mounted very close to the arc of the cutterhead. The feed rollers are then on the infeed and outfeed.   A lot of smaller and lighter duty planers do not have the pressure bar and chip breaker, and some (like my Woodmaster) don't have them because the machines are designed to be converted into moulders and those closely concentric control pieces would get in the way of the larger arc moulder heads.