Official Luthiers Forum!

I once had the opportunity to get my hands on some of the icon guitars ... in this case a couple of D'Angelico's. I had only been building a little more than a year when I saw them... but I couldn't help but notice how rough they were.

They sounded great, but the "tightness" of the work was not was I was expecting.

I am not really critisizing John's work.. merely giving a nod to Mario's and David's point that our obsession with cleanliness may a recent thing.

Personally I like to do very clean work, but I don't go nuts with the sand paper. 120 grit is good enough for the inside. No glue squeeze out or even marks from where the glue was, but I don't feel the need to chase out all the sanding scratches.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I find this very interesting and I’m never surprised to find a myriad of opinions. Personally, with my wood working skills and my less than good tools I can’t be too overly critical of my imperfections . When I’m finished I know that I can sand to my hearts content and produce an adequate exterior. The interior will probably be ok and I will do the cleanup as necessary. This will not bother me a bit. My realistic goal is to make an adequate guitar with adequate sound and playability. The sound and playability will be my where my attention lies. Since my first is a gift to my father and not for sale I know that I will not need to worry about the owner being overly critical.

I’m convinced that my guitar will be better sounding and looking then I expect. With help from you wonderful OLF members and the ukulele building school I took I have learned a great deal. Maybe one of the most important things that I learned is that you can fix almost any error that crops up. Another thing I have learned is that the sound is everything. A great looking instrument that sounds like junk is just pretty junk.

I have a heavily inlayed guitar made by a luthier that I have been trying to sell for only $300.00 and can’t find a buyer. The people who look at it say it’s very nice but they all bring a friend who is a guitar expert with them. Once the guitar is played they say that it sounds OK. They look inside and see a tiny amount of glue squeeze out and they say the guitar isn’t well made. They expect a $300.00 all wood inlayed guitar to be that perfect.

Regards,

Philip

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aka konacat

If you think my playing is bad you should hear me sing!
Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in practice.

One thing I have always loved about vintage Weissenborn guitars in paticular (both round and square, and tenor) as well as old Martins, Larsons and Gibsons, is the degree of craftsmanship they exibit. Most guitars these days give many players the feeling that guitars SHOULD be super clean and boring insdide to sound good. NO WAY. I am a firm believer that especially with the different physics required for hawaiians, their beautiful tone is enhanced by the hand tooled (and never sanded) interiors.

To me the evidence of toothing irons and chisels shows a differnt kind of old world craftsmanship, and not that you are just good at sanding (thats for the outside!). I love the irregularities and individuality. Glue sqeeze out is great, shows that the joint is well glued and the maker knew exactly how much or little to use.

One of the things I always look for in a "handmade" guitar is a craved bridge. yes, carved, as in with a chisel! To me it seems handmakers often feel superior to factorys, when their work is basically so similar, less the marketing. This feature is a statement of who you are as a builder, and a thing of beauty. Not a 10 minuite sander job.

I don't know if it is still in print but David Pye's book "The Nature and Art of Workmanship" is excellant on this topic, well worth a read. True skill with sharp tools leaves wood with a look and feel not amount of 400 paper can duplicate, IMHO.

                      Peace, Paul

Pye's books go in and out of print, apparently depending on the whims of the publisher. The "Workmanship" book is IMO a must read. Both are even better. [For some reason when I tried to bring Pye's work up on another forum a couple of years ago, the list owner discouraged the discussion, and list members who admittedly had never looked at the books started criticizing what they had not seen. I no longer frequent that forum.]

But I didn't notice that Pye ever advocated leaving tool marks behind to evince hand work. Neither would careful smoothing of interior surfaces be contrary to his point about the value of workmanship of risk.

True story re dust bunnies: a friend had a prewar guitar in for repair, and before giving it back, vacuumed the dust out. Owner was furious--those were irreplaceable prewar dust bunnies.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I was part of the "other forum" members. No need to dance around the subject <g>. I've read the book. Your library can bring it in on a inter-library loan.... I still maintain most who read it are misquoting much of its intentions. It was an interesting read, and I've used references to it a few times, even here, but the way it was being used on the MIMF wasn't what Pye was trying to convey. IMHO. 

I remember that dust-up. Not having read it, why does bringing up Pye elicit such emotion?

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https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

Well you sold me and I went to see if I can find one - not cheap

Probably its OP now and someone is gouging.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

[QUOTE=ToddStock] One other point made either in 'Workmanship' or 'Design' is that once a jig or fixture can be used to remove the skill element as a risk factor, it is likely that the next step will be redesign to further facilitate machine manufacture.
[/QUOTE]

We used to call that "design for manufacturability" so that robots could put our computers together. Made for some god-awful ugly computers.

Pye's book is excellent. Not such easy reading, but worth the effort.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

[QUOTE=Rick Turner]

Anyway, much past 150 on the inside and you're wanking...[/QUOTE]

So McPhearson is a wanker Huh Rick ?

I don't build guitars for a living ,as does Rick and others , so can afford the time to make my interiors neat and interesting . I see it as taking pride in my work and enjoy the results . I think some of you guys are trying to justify your rough interiors !

My last guitar has a soundport , so the interior is very viewable . With this in mind , I was determined to make it as nice as I could . IS THIS WRONG ????

Geez ,,,, Give me a break

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Is this Ugly ???   Man, I wish I had read a thread like this before hand . Could have saved myself a heap of work

I'll dismiss the 'Wrapped to tightly" comment above as ignorance.


Craig Lawrence

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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Hesh-If you PM me with an address I would be glad to loan you my copy, just mail it back when you are done.

                    Peace, Paul

Thanks Paul PM on the way and I would love to read this book!!

Craig you know how I feel about your work - you are an extraordinary craftsman and the effort that you go to in your beautiful guitars AND jigs are as nice as I have ever seen.

There are many people who will and do appreciate your vision, skill, and results.  That is one of the things that is great about guitar building - each of us has the opportunity to pursue the aspects of the craft that make us happy.

Mario has a great point too in that the changes in building styles, emphasis on more highly finished/polished box interiors, are part of the reason why a "contemporary" guitar will never sound exactly like the greats of the past.  But they all stand or fall on their own merit or lack of same.  And a well executed contemporary sound is pretty special too in my way of thinking.

Aint life great!

What Hesh just said. A beautifully refined interior is great and tells a lot about its builder. And if that lends to the more modern tone, then that's fine, as long as that is what you wanted and expected.

I take my interiors to a pretty decent level, myself, today. I brought up the whole subject just to add to the discussion, and to get you all thinking of what might be on the other side of the coin.

Thanks Hesh and Mario , I'm starting to feel a bit " normal " again !


Craig Lawrence

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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I ran across this ebay listing for 100 year old unfinished brazilian wood guitar and thought I would pass on a link. Looking at the inside of the back seems to mimic what this thread is about.

100yr old brazillian guitar unfinished

Philip

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aka konacat

If you think my playing is bad you should hear me sing!
Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in practice.

One of the many cool benefits of living in the same little city with David Collins is to visit David's shop.

I have seen some vintage guitars there that the insides look like someone put a roto-rooter in there.  They have one little guitar that has had BRW painted on the outside and it is not made of BRW......

It's also fascinating to see some of the so-called repairs that places other than David's have done to say the sides of a guitar.  Pieces have been added that do not match at all and you can see day light through the edges.........

As a fan of old Gibsons they were pretty rough too inside.

Fascinating stuff.

Todd wrote:  This is all pretty simple materials science....

Funny and slick,Todd. How DO you manage without recourse to emoticons?

Dan

[QUOTE=KiwiCraig]
I'll dismiss the 'Wrapped to tightly" comment above as ignorance.

Craig Lawrence[/QUOTE]

You mis-enterpreted my comments Craig. This a running joke between Hesh and I that we're a bit 'anal' sometimes and we're wound up a bit too tightly... I sand my interiors to 320... 'nuff said.

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Ah, NOW I see the point of the emoticons.  If they're just sprinkled liberally enough...

Dan

G'day Alain, So sorry mate , and I now understand fully . I didn't even notice who had written it, and was still seeing 'red' after reading Rick's post about being a W....r.

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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