Official Luthiers Forum!

Hesh, I think we have to realize that this was initiated by the Brazilian government, and because of the CITES agreement, our government was obligated to participate in the investigation. Right now, the charges are mere allegations, until they prove in court that these guys actually cut down trees. Who knows? Maybe the stories of sunken logs and house beams will prove to be the truth. I think what bothers me is that to my knowledge, the Brazilian government is putting more effort into catching these guys than they have into the reforestation of the species in question. Instead of being the solution, they themselves are a part of the problem.

There's nothing more hypocritical than protecting an endangered species if you're not trying to promote it's future proliferation. If CITES is going to exist, they should back up their listings and jointly provide funding to oversee measures to repopulate the threatened species instead of just trying to protect what remains.

I'm reminded of an organization that is dedicated to trying to bring back the American Chestnut tree. There are very few trees that survived the blight of 1914, and these folks are trying to hybridize the saplings they grow with foreign versions to achieve a tree that is resistant to the blight here. For those that don't know, the young saplings do fine until they hit a certain age, and then the blight kills them. I know of only one very old tree in my area that still survives, but the land it is on is about to be sold to a builder, and it's future is in doubt.

Political rant over...

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I once had an office in Brazil that had one wall in BRW, but it was just
veneer.

I agree with Don Williams here.

Also as I know it, CITES only deals with the trade in endangered species. There must (should... ideally) be some other organizations dealing with reforestation and such. The Brazilian government is like a big part of the problem. There have been rumors for a long time that they are basically burning the stuff to make room for cattle farms that can only last for 3 years or so. Nice. (I don't have a good source on that, though).

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Also, this has absolutely nothing - less than zero - to do with Bin Laden. Sheesh.

And the Google Earth images are not real time.

From the Google Earth FAQ:

3. How old are the images in Google Earth? How often are they updated?

Google Earth acquires the best imagery available, most of which is approximately one to three years old. We add to our database on a regular basis.

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

"Maybe the stories of sunken logs and house beams will prove to be the truth."

As they say Don, the proof is in the pudding.......if indeed this wood was sourced from verifiable pre CITES locations (the bottom of a river, house beams etc.) it should have been possible to generate CITES documentation for its LEGAL export. So far here no one has mentioned that documentation for this stuff was provided (bonafide or not) and that in itself constitutes the violation. Whether or not the wood was truly old or recent becomes irrelevant, though it is hard to believe the individual in question would put himself in such a bad fix out of laziness.

Well, peace-loving luthiers are a much easier target than OBL. We are probably less likely to shoot back, and are expected to confess rather quickly in the simulated drowing non-torture situation.

Check this out if you want to grow your own.

http://tropicalhardwoods.com/htm/tropical_hardwoods/cocobolo .htm

_________________
It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

Hesh, I didn't mean for that to sound like some kind of attack. I've got a bad flu at the moment and its severely limiting my tolerance. No intentions of ill will... I just don't enjoy seeing non-guitar related politics (or religion for that matter - that one really bugs me) discussed here.

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Hey Hesh and Josh, thanks for working that out in a gentlemanly manner...

Wouldn't it be great if we could get luthier organizations to sponsor some attempts at reforestation of species that we so highly prize? I realize that our efforts might never benefit us in our lifetime, but wouldn't it be great if we could work with the political systems such as the Brazilian Government to promote the planting of plantations of species that are mutually beneficial. I'm betting that the perfume industry, which is an even larger user of Brazilian Rosewood trees might even get in on the venture. Perhaps, if we planted thousands of trees and provided funds for their protection and growth, that it might even open up more harvesting of older growth wood due to having secured not only the future survival of the species, but as a viable and abundant commercial commodity.

Anyone have an idea how we could start such an endeavor?

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Guys... keep this on point and out of the political realm.. ok?

No harm no foul, but I don't want this thread to turn south.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

There are efforts to replant BRW in plantations within Brazil but it takes decades to produce anything of size.  Even these efforts are too little too late in most cases. 

The reality is that much of the remaining BRW is hybridized with other Dalbergia species in the same area so the wood that is being grown in plantations may not be the same wood as it was in the past.  Even within BRWs nature range there is alot of variation in speciation so that a log can vary from very light orange to dull brown to the rich deep colors that we traditionally associate with Dalbergia Negra.  Weight and density can vary greatly as was discussed recently in the thread about "Beach" BRW.

It seems like the best thing for us to do is to stop building with BRW..

_________________
http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

The least we can do as guitar builders in invest in re-planting new stock. Massive efforts have been made in replanting trees in the UK, and we now have more stock than we did in the 1900s.

        

Can this be done with BRW?

Tree farm in Costa Rica



Teak tree at 5 years

_________________
It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

[QUOTE=JNixon]         

Can this be done with BRW?

[/QUOTE]

The planting part, yes, but the usable wood in five years part not so much. Actually, I heard from a wood-dealer I buy a lot from that the plantation teak is 'crap' and doesn't have many of the properties that teak is prized for.

You can get as many board feet of 2x4s as you want in a decade or two by planting a stock of spruce, but you can't get enough for one good guitar top inside your lifetime.

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

A local logger here in the Santa Cruz mountains told me that one of the issues with redwood is that it takes 75 years or so of growth for the real rot resistance to develop in the tree, and that accounts for why old growth redwood is much more decay resistant than the young-felled wood. The same may be true for teak.

Also, I've read that dalbergia nigra does not do well in a mono-cultured plantation; it needs complementary species around it to grow properly.   

Tree farming is the future, though, and hopefully some growers will go for some long term planning for some species.   The Indians seem to have done fairly well with their rosewood; why not others?

I purchased a packet of Honduran Mahogany seeds this past winter and planted them in the spring in a "mini greenhouse". The seedlings actually sprouted and survived until they got so big that they needed transplanting. Unfortunately, we suffered a severe drought here in Florida in the spring and the seedlings died.

I plan on trying this again. I know that the trees wont mature in my lifetime, but some of my descendants will appreciate my vision some time in the future when they discover the trees value.

I live in subtropical Florida, and I am confident that I can grow some of these treasured trees.

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

I just had a visit today from a pal who is in the BZRW stump-wood business.   His folks in Brazil got the visit from IBAMA people who looked around, saw nothing but old harvested stumps, and then confiscated three chain saws.   He says that there are still thousands of harvest-worthy stumps down there and that the folks who cut trees deserve to get caught. It's just that it's easier to cut trees than stumps.   He's been in the tropical wood business all his life, and it pisses him off that the stump wood scene is threatened by those cutting standing timber. He and I discussed the "cut one, plant two or three" philosophy, and while none of us would ever get to use the wood, the future deserves to have some available.   His people down in Brazil do plant trees.

The idea that one can generate proper paper work through Brazilian officials for CITES certification is a delightfully naive view of how things really work in South America. Money gets you any paperwork you want in any 3rd world country. One of the interesting issues is that under-the-table money may be one of the issues here in the US, and that's a big no-no here.   That's what got Duke Cunningham a jail sentence. I'm sure there will be more news on this story...

But...the BZRW business is going to be the hot potato business for a while...

I must say I was surprised that the current crack down focused so
exclusively on rosewood. I would have a hard time believing that the trade in
pernambuco doesn't at least equal the rosewood volume. Plus it seems by
both harvest location and buyer markets, the woods would be crossing
through many of the same mills and vendors.

Then again, I suppose a lot of the pernambuco gets manufactured in to
bows in other countries to be shipped here as completed product, so
perhaps they are different markets. It'll be interesting to see how this pans
out.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I have a good friend who is an Argentine citizen who inherited some BRW
from his grandfather (who used it to build grandfather clocks). 
Even though it was his own property, he needed CITES paperwork to bring
it to the US.  Took him 6 months and 2 visits back to Argentina to
walk the paperwork through the official channels himself.  And
this is for about 20 bf.

Pernambuco was a preferred wood for fence posts in Brazil, and a lot of it is being reclaimed...working around nail and staple holes, of course. It's kind of like osage orange (bois d'arc or bodark in the South and plains states) being used for railroad ties.

I have made quite a number of trips to south american countries.... Venezuela more than any other country. No matter what country you go to, poverty like nowhere else in the world is more evident than anybody in the states can immagine. Unless you have seen it for yourself, you really have no idea what real poverty is.

I can see where wood coming from and through these countries would be like finding gold to us. I can also see why they would take risks to sell it abroad.

As someone mentioned above, nothing happens down there without someone's palm getting greased with the money. nothing. Nada. Money will get you whatever you want, no matter how illegal or taboo it is. I have seen it with my own eyes.

You can bet that all of this was brought on by somebody not getting their cut of the pie. I wouldnt have happened for any other reason.

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

[QUOTE=Hodges_Guitars]

I have made quite a number of trips to south american countries.... Venezuela more than any other country. No matter what country you go to, poverty like nowhere else in the world is more evident than anybody in the states can immagine. Unless you have seen it for yourself, you really have no idea what real poverty is.

[/QUOTE]

True, and you've hit the nail on the head. There is certainly much more than meets the eye here about this bust- it would be far more informative to see who makes out of this with stock and reputation. Don't forget there are quite a number of folks who sell brazilian- from the europeans to the brazilians- why is only one person named?

Also, the idea you can get CITES permits despite having legally harvested stock is entirely false. You can get CITES permits if you pay- and it's not just one or two folks but the whole shebang.

Warning rant mode:

Also, may I point out that the majority of folks who are shouting ban and conservation in the same breath are financially sercure and live in western countries with ecologies largely destroyed by industrialisation? How are these poorer folks supposed to make the saem kind of money western countries did when they took full advantage of natural resources? I dare anyone say that the trade in xzy has to be banned to a starving family in Bahia. There is no simple answer to a complex problem.

Maybe the best thing is to give folks money to keep the trees standing.

Okay ranting over!

Warmest regards,
Terence
www.goodacoustics.com