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Rick Turner
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:33 pm 
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I do it the same way that Hesh mentioned...with a thin rubber gloved finger.   I suppose you could cut concave curves into plastic squeegees, but it's pretty easy this way.

I think that for every hour the epoxy fill adds to the whole process of finishing, I probably save at least an hour and a half, AND the result is a thinner and better finish.


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joe white(old)
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:38 pm 
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Yep, rubber glove here too! I kind of dabbed it on with a rubber cooking spatula (pictured above in white) and leveled it off with my gloved finger.
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joe white(old)
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:40 pm 
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Did you catch my question for you above Rick? Not being impatient just wondering if you stumbled across it? 


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KenH
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:43 pm 
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Never crossed my mind to do it with a rubber glove DUH!!


Thanks guys! I'll try this method next time.


Joe, THANKS for going to that trouble. It looks like the west system is the way to go fo sure. I have had real issues with the zpoxy darkening this portion of my necks so dark that they look almost black. Looks like the west system doesnt do that, so that is most definitely a better way to go for me.


 


Thanks again everybody!


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joe white(old)
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:46 pm 
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Glad to help Ken. I am really liking the west stuff so far.
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j.Brown
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:20 pm 
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I always wear the gloves when epoxy filling anyway, but for curved areas, the cheap rubber squeegee i picked up in the auto dept of walmart for a buck seems to work well. For the peghead and detail areas, though, the glove I've already got on at that point does the trick.
-j.

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j.Brown
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:23 pm 
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Hesh, you're right on about the system III. I was off by just a bit before I bought my gram scale on the mix and it never cured. I ended up going through a ton of sandpaper pulling that gummy mess off of my guitar. i haven't used it since.
The last time I used West, it started heating up and smoking in my mixing jar. I had to put it out in the snow. I've used Zpoxy since then. I find the wet effect is really nice, it pops the grain really well, and the mix is dreadfully easy.
-j.

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Rick Turner
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:25 pm 
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Joe, so far we're just doing one application. I'd probably sand and recoat overnight anyway if a guitar needed more.

Here it is on a Saturday night, and I'm shooting polyester on six guitar bodies. Three walnut ones that got West; three didn't. What a difference... The ones that didn't will be fine as they are getting top coated with satin, but in the future I'm just going to do them all with the pore filler. It will make for needing less poly and much easier flat sanding.
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Jloc222
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:12 pm 
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Hey Rick, I believe you mention prefering the 205 hardener as you like to burn through guitars and your employees prefer the slower 206 for obvious reasons.  Have you ever compared the two closely side by side?  The site mentions that the 206 has a lower viscosity and from my use I can say I was quite surprised at how nice and thin it was, especially after using a few random brands of epoxy.  I haven't tried the 205 yet and was wondering if there was noticeable difference in viscosity or is it still nice and thin?  Thanks for the info. Jason
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joe white(old)
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:18 am 
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[QUOTE=Rick Turner]Joe, so far we're just doing one application. I'd probably sand and recoat overnight anyway if a guitar needed more.
but in the future I'm just going to do them all with the pore filler. It will make for needing less poly and much easier flat sanding.[/QUOTE]


So, are you attempting to get the pores and grain fully filled with the west or just using it as a grain-pore slight fill and relying on the sprayed polyester to fully fill and then sand level?
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JohnAbercrombie
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:13 am 
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Interesting thread!
I'm just jumping in here with a few points about WEST epoxy-
I've used the 205, 206 and 207 hardeners (not catalysts) and they all work about the same, though there are some viscosity differences. In the pore-filling application, you probably will not notice any difference in clarity between these hardeners, so I wouldn't bother getting 207 unless you have a boatbuilding project in mind. The 205/206 hardeners are useful for general gluing; the 207 is a finishing hardener only, as I recall.
re:Additives. I would be very hesitant about adding fumed silica (aka cabosil) or any other thickener to epoxy when pore-filling. Silica fillers which look identical in powder form can behave quite differently- some produce a definite whitish cast to the epoxy mix. Any silica additive will make the epoxy MUCH harder to sand. Also, thickener is not necessary- I'd rather take 20 minutes to put on a second coat of epoxy if necessary, rather than thickening.
Pot life:The quoted 'pot life' numbers usually refer to mixed epoxy in a cup or similar container. If you get the mixture spread out, you will allow the heat generated by the chemical reaction to dissipate, and the working time will be much increased. If necessary, you can even pour the epoxy into a flat container (or into a container improvised from aluminum foil) to slow down the reaction. I usually get the epoxy on the working surface fairly promptly, so 205 works well for me for all smaller projects.
Shelf life: The hardeners will darken over time (we're talking years here) but their working properties are not affected in my experience. (The color change is less in the mixed epoxy, because of the 5:1 ratio). I've used WEST epoxy and hardeners that were 6-8+ years old with no problems- do a test shot if you are in doubt.

Safety: ALWAYS wear gloves and keep epoxy off your skin, as it is a sensitizer for allergic reactions. If you do get it on your skin, use waterless cleaner, not solvent (alcohol) for cleaning.

Cheers
John
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Andy Zimmerman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:41 pm 
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FYI
Tony Ferguson uses 207 for his pore filling

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joe white(old)
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:19 pm 
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Here is a shot after I blocked out the first coat and added the second. This stuff is a little tough to cut. I used 400 grit wet with warm water and it took a bit of elbow grease! I will have to look into a better way to level between coats.
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Rick Turner
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:32 pm 
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DynaOrbital with 3M Gold 280 or 320 grit paper. Piece of cake...
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joe white(old)
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:38 pm 
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Exactly what I was thinking for my next go around. Thanks Rick! Does anyone else smell camphor when you mix West or sand it? I did.
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Andy Zimmerman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:11 pm 
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I asked Tony Ferguson about his pore filling since I want to french polish
one of mine. If any of you haven't seen any of Tonys finishes, well....you
should.    They are perfect!!!

He uses West 105 resin and 207 hardner. Also he applies with a foam
brush!!!!!
Also often he adds a 2nd coat when it is still tacky at 4-6 hours! He will
then sand back with 220 or 320.
He used Cat urethane for his finishes



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joe white(old)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:52 am 
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[QUOTE=azimmer1]Also often he adds a 2nd coat when it is still tacky at 4-6 hours! He will then sand back with 220 or 320. He used Cat urethane for his finishes [/QUOTE]


This is what I was refering to above. According to the tech sheet on the 207 Hardener, West mentions that the epoxy can be re-coated within 12 hours without any further surface prep. Bonus! Time and labor savings!
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Michael Dale Payne
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:54 am 
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[QUOTE=Ricardo] I understand correctly LMI's KTM takes the place of Stewmac's Colortone sealer and top coat [/QUOTE]

KTM9 is a waterborne Acrylic finish very much like Colortone. except it is much clearer with less blue tint than Colortone. At least most believe so

In my opinion if you are trying to stay away from volatile finishes like cat poly or nitro and don't want to French polish then KTM 9 is a great finish. Easy to use Cures fairly quick.

This is how I would do it.

Fill with Zpoxy or West system (if you use a wood that bleeds seal your top and light bindings/purflings with 1# shellac first but not the back and sides.)

Seal after pore filling is complete with shellac.

finish with KTM9 following Mike Doolin's schedule (See Doolin guitars web site for the the schedule.)

Yes Zpoxy is more forgiving than some finishing resins on mixture ratios, but keep in mind the closer to proper ratio the better the cure and final hardness, therefore the easier to sand.



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joe white(old)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:39 pm 
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They look great Todd!
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Ricardo
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:52 pm 
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TODD, very nice.  the warm tone of the z-poxy may help offset the bluey of water-based lacquer, although I haven't seen it in the Colortone I use.

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Rick Turner
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:58 pm 
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The whole point of taking time to do the epoxy fill correctly is so you don't have to lay on as many top coats as would be normal. With the epoxy done that well, you'll need hardly any lacquer or poly of any kind, so any bluish tint will be negligible.


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Jloc222
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:24 pm 
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Forgot to say thank you to John for your post on the comparison between the different hardener thicknesses.  The site mentioned the quicker stuff being a little thicker and I was just curious if it was noticeable and sounds as it is, but nothing drastic.  I really like how thin the 206 is, especially compared to other epoxies I've tried in the past.  For now I'll stick with the 206 as it works for me well, though I usually have a good amount of time before it sets. I guess this extra time is from my use with the 5 minute stuff in the past, though this extra time will help me make sure I get my fretboards on perfectly before anything sets.  Anyhow, thanks again John for that information, it was just what I was looking for. Jason 


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JohnAbercrombie
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:20 am 
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Thanks for the kind words, Jason.
I'm glad to help.
Cheers
John
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uncledave
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:55 pm 
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Rick Turner,

You said:
  
(you were speaking of waterborne finishes  "Everyone I know who does use it starts off with a bunch of explanations
and excuses for why they do while admitting that it isn't as good as
nitro lacquer which I don't think is as good as polyester, catalyzed
polyurethane, varnish, or French polish."

As an amateur with no spray booth, who, at this time,  is only interested in building as a hobby to learn the ways of hitting tonal targets, playability, etc, I'm fascinated by your comment that you consider varnish in your list.  This is the only finishing product I have any experience with, but this experience comes from maintaining the teak on a sailboat.  That involved 6-8 coats of spar varnish to hold up to the tropical sun. 

What varnish products are you thinking of, and what application technique would you recommend,  spray, brush, whatever.  I can't imagine how a varnish product could be applied as thin as needed for an instrument.

This thread has been educational and I appreciate all the suggestions here.  

Great forum, and thanks Rick and to everyone.

Dave
Flower Mound TX
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Rick Turner
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:01 pm 
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The real master of varnish guitar finishes is Bruce Sexauer who posts a lot over at the 13th Fret.   I believe he uses many coats of Behlen's "Rock Hard" varnish, each coat very thin and sanded before recoating.   Look into the archives over there.   You'll also find varnish info over at the Mandolin Cafe where varnish is the preferred high end finish. There's a whole world there in varnish-land...long oil, short oil, spirit, French polish formulas, French polished shellac over oil varnish...it's another planet. I'm not the guy to ask the heavy questions about that, though I do use Waterlox which by simple definition is a long oil varnish.
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