Official Luthiers Forum!

I am an active member of the Luthierforum, and relatively active here at the OLF as well. Here, I read a lot more than I post, which makes sense as I am a beginner that has only built one guitar. I have checked out the other forums (fora?) as well, and of course there is information on lutherie to be found in each. Each forum has a different "flavor" or "feel." I see the OLF as a blend of members from beginners preparing to build their first instrument, to seasoned pros that have a huge breadth and depth of experience in lutherie, repair, marketing, recording, etc. The Luthierforum has the same blend of members, but in a different ratio. Here at the OLF, there are more pros - especially pros that are displaying instruments in high profile shows like Healdsburg. The OLF members are more likely to show photos of completed instruments; the Luthierforum has more beginners, or a higher ratio of beginners, and the members are more likely to create threads that document the entire build process rather than just completed photos.

There are, of course, a number of folks that are members of both forums, and likely other forums as well.

Recent posts here in a number of threads have made me think of "divide and conquer" strategies, to keep this place a friendly haunt for beginners and intermediates, and provide a meeting place for the seasoned pros as well.

I started a thread on the Luthierforum called "patience and tolerance", because I was irritated that some of the curmudgeonly seasoned pros were being shouted down and made to feel unwelcome. I didn't want to lose their wealth of information. I guess I have been around enough terse, gruff, curmudgeonly types in my life that I can handle the messenger because I want the message. I have learned to tolerate quite a bit. Of course, like any human, I have a threshold of tolerable behavior that I can handle. I choose not to listen to the message when the messenger jumps from acerbic to caustic, from pointed to demeaning, from gruff to deliberately rude. Though I can ignore a lot of boorish behavior and just walk away, I'm more likely to jump into a fray if I feel a mate is being attacked.

There are as many teaching styles as there are teachers. I personally would not want to endure an intense, maniacal, screaming drill instructor. And, if some luthier instructor smashed my violin in progress because they thought it was a good way to teach, they would soon have a lifetime supply of red pigment at their disposal. Some other students or soldiers might have a much higher threshold than me, or believe that they must endure anything and everything to reach their goal.

Lance posted, in the OLF Code of Conduct, a paragraph that starts: "Be neighborly." Lance and Brock will need to determine when someone has broken the spirit of that rule, and deal with the poster to curb the behavior. But, what about those members that have purposely developed a terse, gruff, or curmudgeonly style based on their belief that it is the correct way to teach or that their many years of experience should afford them special consideration?

Maybe the OLF has grown to a point where it is time to divide and conquer. Maybe beginners should be encouraged to haunt other forums, such as the Luthierforum, that have a higher ratio of beginners. They could learn some of the basics of lutherie, then come back here when they have the skill level and experience to participate in a pro-level discussion. Maybe the OLF needs to create a sub-forum, as has been done with "CNC and Lutherie" and the "Guild of Michigan Luthiers", and the new sub-forum would be for pros only. Or at least only pros could post there. That would give folks like Rick Turner a place to hang out where they would not have to be bothered by beginner or even intermediate questions. Or, maybe the new sub-forum could be for beginners, leaving the "Main Discussion" area for intermediate and pro topics? Let's face it, Rick Turner has no peers here. His experience is deeper and wider than any other pro, so how about setting Rick up with an area called "Ask Rick Turner", and he could provide his perspective to those who ask specific questions of him, in a question and answer format. That would allow the OLF to retain Rick's wealth of knowledge, and allow those who cannot handle lutherie bootcamp to visit other areas of the OLF instead. (This same thing was done with Wm Cumpiano at the Luthierforum.) What do you think Lance, Brock, Rick?

And what do the other members here think about some sort of a divide and conquer strategy?

Dennis Leahy

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Honestly - and this is a subject that's been brought up several times, on numerous forums - I doubt that's what Rick or anyone else is after. He shares his knowledge because he likes sharing it and has a passion for guitars, methinks. If he wants an 'ask Rick Turner' soapbox, I'm sure one of the guitar mags would give it to him.

The point of communities is the fact you get this mix of newbs and pros. Newbies (of which I am certainly one, albeit an 'old newbie' in a number of ways) contribute different things, provide different insights, and everyone gets to learn from mistakes, or pick up new 'hey, never thought of it that way' insights. These very often come from seasoned, knowledgable builders, but its the discourse that keeps things healthy. And discourse that leads to new knowledge is rarely polite, balanced, and without controversy.

Rick seems to rub a lot of folks the wrong way, but I think his directive, confrontative style (not dissimilar to Mario's, I might add) is part of his charm. Personally, he reminds me of some of my better teachers (in other fields). Opinionated, but with a breadth of knowledge and a desire to gain a deeper understanding of the subject matter at hand. Take it or leave it, I guess...

You would be cutting off, from the respected builders, the ideas eminating from newbees and other less experienced builders, many of whom, through the years have had great ideas or great questions that benefit everyone. A higherarchy is not needed as it pertains to explerience.

There's probably no faster way for a forum to crash and burn into irrelevant oblivion than create an elitist member class defined by those very same member elitist.

"He that can not not learn from his students is no teacher. He who has not taught his mentor has not learned. Academics in any field is an interactive sport, requiring adversarial participation from both the student and teacher. Memorisation is not learning. Only through debate and experience can turn information into knowledge."

It would seem to me that when you segregate the students from the mentors you will no longer have a classroom and no one would learn.

I'm sorry Dennis but I think that would be the very worst thing that could happen here, I think it would be the beginning of the end of the OLF, if that hasn't already started. It would be like creating luthiery apartheid. Who would make the decision of sorting out the sheep from the goats?

There is no excuse for seasoned pros to be 'curmudgeonly' nor to be offensive and disrepectful to other forum members, no matter how good they think they are. Their knowledge base is no reason for rudeness. Their knowledge is of course very welcome, but they have to learn the social skills of inter-reacting with others in this forum if they are to stay welcome. Making excuses for them is not acceptable. All the boot camp sargeant is, is a bully.

I agree that we should be neighbourly but that means the seasoned pros as well. If they can do that then, as I said, their knowledge is very welcome, if not then we would be better off without them. Take Al Carruth as an example, he has forgotten more about what makes a musical instrument tick then most of us will ever know, but he comes here and shares his knowledge freely and with grace to all of us. He never belittles the views of others nor is offensive in his manner. If others modelled themselves on him then they are welcome.

Mario could be grumpy, but he was never rude, offensive nor disrespectful of the opinions of others, he would simply point out where he thought they were wrong. He was also extremely helpful to beginners and new builders, not only here on the forum but away from it as well, I know I benefited from his advice as did many here. He is sorely missed.

We tried having a separate forum for Ervin Somogyi if you remember, and look what a farce that turned out to be.

This must remain a truly open forum for anyone to express their view without having to seek permission from a seasoned pro before hand. From the experience builder or rpair man to the guy just thinking of getting his first kit.

What do you think the sponsors of the forum would say if we said that new builders weren't welcome here? Ask Stew Mac or LMI or indeed Bob C if they want the very people who need the equipment, wood etc., that they are no longer welcome until they have 'done their time'.

I expect I have built more guitars than many of the 'pros' but I still consider myself an amateur as I give my spare instruments away rather than sell them. I do repairs on extremely valuable historic guitars and lutes for several major museums, but as I don't charge them, I can't call myself a professional. I do it because I enjoy it. But I must know what I'm doing as they entrust me with instruments worth 10s of thousands of pounds.

Any type of discrimination or apartheid is wrong, and would most certainly lead to the end of the forum.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

With all due respect Dennis, I'd have to agree that it would likely cause more problems than we have already. For example: when does one become a "PRO"? This is what I do for a living and I do it full time, does that make me a "PRO"? What if I don't want to be stuck with certain "PROS", can I move down a level to be with "Plain Folks" that I can relate to? Etc, Etc...
I find it somewhat amusing that we've let one bad seed rock this whole boat. One rude person who thinks he's being a "hard a**" when in reality he's just being an "a**".
There are other voices of experience here. Mark Blanchard has been in this game for a long time too (sorry, I'm not aware of the exact number but it's only important to certain folks anyway) and his opinions I can really get a lot out of. He's kind, answers questions, and even has the humbleness to ask quesions too. All around good guy. We wouldn't want someone like him excluded because whe had to split into clubs. Tim McKnight, Tony Karol, John O, Mike Collins, the list goes on and on of folks that are in this game for real and yet still have the courtesy to give back to the community.

Honestly, what real purpose does this thread serve? I mean besides starting a never-ending dicusssion centered around an emotionally charged issue? Can I learn something about guitars from it?

[QUOTE=DennisLeahy]There are, of course, a number of folks that are members of both forums, and likely other forums as well.

Recent posts here in a number of threads have made me think of "divide and conquer" strategies, to keep this place a friendly haunt for beginners and intermediates, and provide a meeting place for the seasoned pros as well.

I started a thread on the Luthierforum called "patience and tolerance", because I was irritated that some of the curmudgeonly seasoned pros were being shouted down and made to feel unwelcome. I didn't want to lose their wealth of information. I guess I have been around enough terse, gruff, curmudgeonly types in my life that I can handle the messenger because I want the message. I have learned to tolerate quite a bit. Of course, like any human, I have a threshold of tolerable behavior that I can handle. I choose not to listen to the message when the messenger jumps from acerbic to caustic, from pointed to demeaning, from gruff to deliberately rude. Though I can ignore a lot of boorish behavior and just walk away, I'm more likely to jump into a fray if I feel a mate is being attacked.

Dennis Leahy[/QUOTE]

of a truth i am a member of four or five forum's. i like this place alot, there are some very talented indiv. that i can learn from, irreguardless of what their beliefs are, im not here to judge what they think is wrong or right.

but in all honesty, i must say, nowhere have i encountered the divided and conquer stratagy anwhere but in the luthierforum. i love mario to death, and i will allways go there for the wonderwood and to chat with some of my friends, but everytime i go there, i distinctlly feel unwelcome. i dont see the thread in which you speak and i dont suppose it will do any good. the people there have this "click" and if your not part of their click, or think the same way they do........then you are definatelly , unwelcome.

anyway thats my opinion

and im sticking to it.

Mark Eugene Berger

Thanks Glen,
Guys, all points well taken.
I am going to close this topic now, we can read it but I am not going to monitor it for the next week waiting to see if it blows up in my face.

Lets Build guitars and have fun!

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com