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Should I even try? Unknown year or manufacturer.
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Author:  brentward [ Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Should I even try? Unknown year or manufacturer.
My grandfather died when my dad was little so I never knew him, but I have his guitar. I've always wanted to see it restored.

When my dad, who was a jack of all trades, got ahold of it, it was apparently in rough shape - so he set about getting it to a playable condition. There were apparently no bridge pins, so he set about attaching a metal tailpiece he got ahold of. The wood nut was a little wonky, so a folded small piece of paper and a new notch for the high E was cut in. He also painted the sides and back with a brown stain/paint - I think he did that, I can't remember exactly what he told me. The frets are very worn, and between that and I guess a possible fretboard/neck issue there is lots of buzzing or inability to even play different notes between frets 7-10. I'm guessing the nut issue isn't helping either. The fretboard, as you would expect from a guitar that is probably from the late 1930s or very early 40s (my best guess) and had no real maintenance done to it, has noticeable wear in the first position. The tuners though are original and in very good shape. It holds tune very well. Structure-wise, the guitar is solid, with good bones.

I keep it in open D and with the metal tailpiece and medium strings it has a decent sound, especially with a big brass slide. I haven't changed the strings in years, mostly because it's one less thing to spend money on until I get the thing fixed.

Just my analysis - It needs a new nut, probably a bridge saddle, complete refret, fretboard repair, and I'd also like to remove the paint and refinish it (that's the one I'm most conflicted on - it does have a unique character to it with the homemade stain/paint job. Also don't know if I should get new pins and remove the metal tailpiece. At least that's what I see. I have photos, but I can't seem to get them down in filesize small enough to attach. Are we able to post links to folders on google drive or dropbox?

My dilemma is what to do myself, and what to save up for to find someone with more experience to take care of, or to just have someone do all of it. I'd like to further develop my skills (I've done some beginner-level stuff), but I'm wondering if this may be a project to take a pass on. The balance is to maintain the character of the guitar, but make it actually truly playable again for years to come.

I think it would be a great tribute to the memory of my father and grandfather to have this guitar in the best condition possible to be able to continue to pass it down through the family - I just don't want to overreach and screw something up.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I even try? Unknown year or manufacturer.
We really need more details. Do you have pictures?
Author:  brentward [ Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I even try? Unknown year or manufacturer.
Chris Pile wrote:
We really need more details. Do you have pictures?


Yes, I do have pictures - I'm having a problem resizing them to upload on here since the file size requirement is so small. I didn't know if we could post links to external shared folders like a google drive or not....but anyways, here's the link.

There's also a short vid of me playing it a little for a basic example of the issues on the 7-10 frets. Sorry for the creepy doll in the background staring.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Author:  Chris Pile [ Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I even try? Unknown year or manufacturer.
You can also use IMGUR as a photo hosting website. I can't get your video to play, by the way.

Is there a label or any writing or printing inside the guitar?

If your skills are few and not developed, I would not advise doing any intensive work. Also - leave the finish. It's quite involved, and would probably changed the sound of the instrument.

Certainly looks interesting.
Author:  brentward [ Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I even try? Unknown year or manufacturer.
Sorry about the video....google said it was still processing....not sure what's going on with that.

There is an ink stamp inside that reads "No. 335"

Here's a YouTube link to the video. https://youtu.be/fwVe2TNojx0
Author:  Chris Pile [ Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I even try? Unknown year or manufacturer.
Much better! I'd say a fret level and some new strings will improve the playability and the tone.
Author:  Mark Mc [ Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I even try? Unknown year or manufacturer.
The age and the family history make it worthy of some repair to give it further good life for the next generation or two of family musicians. But it is not a valuable guitar so don’t go overboard. Don’t even think of refinishing it.

Like Chris says the problem around frets 7-10 is uneven fret height. You press a string down at fret 7 but it is actually making contact at a higher fret so it sounds the wrong note. Are some of the frets lifting out of their slots? The high ones might need reseating and glue to hold them down. If they are all firm then it just needs fret leveling and re-crowning.

The nut looks pretty bad. I would replace it.
Is there a truss rod? And how is the neck relief and action?

A big question is whether to remove the tailpiece and return it to a pinned bridge. That would be ideal, but it is clear that the bridge has been removed and reglued at least once before. There could be all sorts of trouble hidden under the bridge. The tailpiece was added as a solution to some sort of problem, and I suspect it is something more serious than “I lost the bridge pins”.
Author:  brentward [ Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I even try? Unknown year or manufacturer.
Chris and Mark - thanks to you both for your input.

The frets across the board are a combination of being both worn and uneven in height. I went through and played up through the neck to see if I noticed any kind of movement/lifting of the frets. They are all firmly in place.

There is no truss rod. The action on it is great, I have no complaints. The neck itself is set quite well.

Don't know if you could see, but from the soundhole to the bridge there is a crack all the way down that shows repair...there's a slight concaveness as well, a little sinking down. When you look at the bridge, you can see that it is warped just a little. So I think I may leave the tailpiece alone. It's working just fine and not hurting anything.

On the bridge saddle, a few strings are resting in some quite deep notches - especially that high E string, which sits in that makeshift slot on the nut. Here's a photo of it. I don't know how I missed snapping one earlier. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HaP1fK ... sp=sharing

The thing that sucks is that I don't know exactly what the condition of the guitar was when my dad was able to get ahold of it - I know he did the best he knew how. I'd like to just make it last for another 80 (or more) years.
Author:  Freeman [ Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I even try? Unknown year or manufacturer.
Brentward, Chris and Mark have give you some good advice. I'll add a couple of observations. I'll also add that unlike some repair people I tend to be a little more willing to take on these impossibly expensive repairs of old family heirlooms.

Don't worry about any of the finishing or cosmetic issues. It is what it is, you'll probably make it worse. I approach things in this order
- structural issues. Fix anything that is broke or loose - braces, bridge, significant cracks. I'll come back to this
- geometry. Primarily neck angle, can you get acceptable action
- frets. Dress or replace
- setup. This includes making or modifying the nut and saddle as required.

OK, back to structural things. One possible reason that this guitar was converted from pinned bridge to a tailpiece might be that it is ladder braced and was undergoing some top rotation. The forces on a pinned bridge pulls the top up behind the bridge and pushes it down between the bridge and sound hole. This can create a belly in the lower bout and result in high action.

A guitar with a tail piece only has the vertical component of string tension into the top. That actually works pretty well with ladder bracing and it is possible that the conversion was done for this reason. I don't buy the "lost pin" argument - pins are cheap and easy to get, probably more so than the tailpiece.

You can tell a whole lot more if you look carefully at the bridge - is it coming unglued? Look inside with a flashlight and inspection mirror - is the bridge plate all chewed up? Braces loose or missing? I'm guessing that it is ladder braced but it could be something else.

After you've determined exactly what is going on at the bridge you can decide whether to put new pins in it or keep the tailpiece. At the same time you should check the neck angle against the bridge and measure all the action parameters - relief, action at 1st and 12th frets. I know it doesn't have a truss rod but you still need to know what the relief is - if you decide to refret it might be time to deal with it also.

All of this stuff would be prohibitive for a paid repair person but is not totally out of reach for a do it yourselfer. However before you dive in at least check the bridge, the frets and neck angle and report back
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I even try? Unknown year or manufacturer.
Freeman laid it out pretty good. I get these in every once in a while. The repairs are usually much more expensive than the guitar’s value. I offer 2 options: repair it enough so it can be displayed or do what’s needed to make it a good player. Last one I did was a 30’s Maybell that belonged to the clients dad. It needed structural work, a reset and refret but it ended up being a really sweet little guitar.
Author:  brentward [ Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I even try? Unknown year or manufacturer.
Thanks so much to everyone who gave comments and advice. I now feel much more confident about evaluating the direction I need to go. I will most certainly give an update whenever I decide to do is done.

This makes me glad to have found this forum.
Author:  brentward [ Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I even try? Unknown year or manufacturer.
I found an old photo of my grandfather(in the car) and a neighbor (holding the guitar) that my dad had scanned several years ago. It's a little hard to see in the one posted here, but in the original higher-res one, it looks like that metal tailpiece has been on there for a super long time...

Anyway, back to getting my final game plan together for this guitar. Thanks again for all the input.
Author:  bionta [ Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should I even try? Unknown year or manufacturer.
Very cool picture. Good luck with your guitar.
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