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| Removing a Gibson M&T set neck http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=51582 |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
I have a funky old Gibson that I believe is a 1960's ES-120T, a model that I wasn't familiar with. It is a thin line body but has bracing like an ES-175 (it originally came with a floating bridge) and a fairly large neck block that extends to the front edge of the pickup cavity. I'm assuming it is a pretty standard shaped mortise and tenon joint, but the tenon does not extend into the pickup cavity. The guitar has been modified and repainted over the years, and came to me because the neck seems to be loosening in its pocket. There are cracks on both sides of the fretboard extension on the top, I can stick a feeler gauge into it but it doesn't go very far down. There is a gap in the neck block that I assume is the end of the tenon - everything inside the guitar is painted black. When I put a straight edge on the frets and measure at the bridge, the end goes down about 1/8 inch when I go from no string tension to standard tuning and the gaps along the f/b extension seem to open slightly. Interestingly there is no crack or gap at the bottom of the heel, I would have expected that to be opening. Obviously the fix is to remove the neck, clean it up and reglue it. I've built LP and 335 style guitars and am familiar with Gibson's standard design for set neck thin bodied guitars. My problem is whether I can get steam into the glue joint, whether it will come apart (I'm assuming its not hide glue), whether the steam will damage or open any other glue joints (neck block, top, back....), and last, but not least, how much damage I'll do to the finish (which I'm sure I can't repair). Before I return the guitar to its owner and tell him I can't/won't do it I thought I would just check here - has anyone steamed the neck of a Gibbie like this? Attachment: IMG_4964.JPG
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
I always pulled the 14th or 15th fret, drilled a small hole straight down into the gap between the tenon and mortise (about 1/3 of the way over), and inject steam there. If you can't persuade it to release, then I saw through the fingerboard where I pulled the fret, and then gently remove the fingerboard section over the joint. That will expose the joint, and further steaming will be more accessible. Of course, when it's time to reverse the procedure, a little touch-up will probably be necessary. Good luck. |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
Thanks Chris, and thats exactly what I would do if it were a dovetail. However I'm pretty sure it a simple tenon that looks something like this and I can't figure out where or how to get steam into the sides and bottom. Attachment: IMG_1970.JPG Attachment: IMG_1975.JPG
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
Trust me.... Gibson stuff isn't that tight. I reglued an L-6 decades ago that had about a quarter size spot of glue holding it on... Drill baby, drill. Do it at an angle if you want - search for the soft soft. |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
OK, I understand and that is certainly worth a try. |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
Go easy, and don't drill out the back or the side. Don't be afraid to drill multiple holes. Also, since the neck pickup is right there - pull it and see if there's a way in.... |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
When I restore a Gibby ES model and need to pull the neck I remove the heel cap, drill a hole at an angle up into the joint head space and apply the steam through it. This joint is not a straight tennon like an LP but a dovetail that is actually open at the top which makes steaming by pulling a fret ala Martin a bad approach. |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
Ooooo, good one, Brian. Never thought of that one. Must remember for future use! |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
B. Howard wrote: When I restore a Gibby ES model and need to pull the neck I remove the heel cap, drill a hole at an angle up into the joint head space and apply the steam through it. This joint is not a straight tennon like an LP but a dovetail that is actually open at the top which makes steaming by pulling a fret ala Martin a bad approach. Really? I know that thicker bodies like ES-175's are dovetails but this is only about 1-1/2 or so thick and it sees to have a pretty big neck block that extends right to the p/u opening. I always thought that a dovetail need a fair amount of height to achieve its bearing surfaces. |
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| Author: | DanKirkland [ Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
B. Howard wrote: When I restore a Gibby ES model and need to pull the neck I remove the heel cap, drill a hole at an angle up into the joint head space and apply the steam through it. This joint is not a straight tennon like an LP but a dovetail that is actually open at the top which makes steaming by pulling a fret ala Martin a bad approach. This, It's the same approach I use for Hofner bass neck resets. Works like a charm. |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
Based on the stuff I see going on at the bridge location and what appears to be a re-finish I would guess you may be looking at a repair on the end of a cracked headblock inside the P-up hole. |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
B. Howard wrote: Based on the stuff I see going on at the bridge location and what appears to be a re-finish I would guess you may be looking at a repair on the end of a cracked headblock inside the P-up hole. Brian, thank you again. Here are a couple more pictures that might help (or hinder) the thinking process. First, there is a pretty good gap between then end of the neck and the neck block - but it appears to be orgininal. I can put a little rule into the gap and I assume it goes to the bottom of the pocket Attachment: IMG_4983.JPG Attachment: IMG_4979.JPG This would be a possible location to inject steam that I think would go into the joint, but here are other bits glued in this area that would probably get steam on them too - I would worry about opening up the entire neck block area. There is a crack that runs along both sides of the neck extension, I can push a feeler gauge a short distance into it Attachment: IMG_4982.JPG The gaps extend to the front of the heel but interestingly do not seem to be open at the bottom (where you would think that string tension would pull it open) Attachment: IMG_4981.JPG You are right that the addition of the Nashville (big studs) ToM is not correct and a probably problem area. It looks like they tried it in one location, then plugged the holes and moved the bridge a little farther away. Measuring the scale length it is approximately the correct location - it can probably be made to intonate OK. Point here is this is not my problem. However another comment about the bridge - when I put a straightedge on the frets an measure the height of the end off the top at the bridge, then string it up to tension, the end moves down 1/8 inch. If the top were compressing under load I would expect the height to get taller. The fact that the end moves down does tell me the neck and/or neck block is rotating under tension. The other issue, of course, is the paint job. It is an OK amateur sunburst, but I have no idea what the paint is or whether I could repair the damage that will certainly occur when I try to take the neck off. I will score around the heel and f/b extension but I'm certain that there will be some damage. If I elect to go ahead with this there will be a disclaimer. |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
Everything I see there is wrong wrong wrong.... Pickup should be about 7/8" from the end of the FB, the heel of the neck should be flush with the back and have a celluloid heel cap, Neck should be higher out of the body and have an obvious flying extension grafted on at the end of the Dovetail.... You sure this thing is a Gibby?? What I see says it isn't. |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
It say Gibbie on the head, has a serial number that places it in 1963, and looks like pictures I found of an ES-120T (which has a big pick guard with the controls mounted on it The original 120 has a floating bridge which would make sense with the very light bracing that I see (a couple of parallel braces on either side of the p/u, the legs of a floating bridge would just sit on them. Scale is more or less Gibbie 24.75. There is no label that I can see inside. Attachment: IMG_4965.JPG
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| Author: | Freeman [ Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
I'm about 99 percent sure I'm going to pass on this thing - I can see about a hundred ways it can go wrong. |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
Offer him $100. All he can do is say no. |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
Chris Pile wrote: Offer him $100. All he can do is say no. I'm not buying it (and I wouldn't if I could). He wants me to fix it. |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
Ahhh..... I thought it was a 125T! So yeah, different animal. These appear to have used melody maker necks. I have not taken one of these apart. Any thing this low end usually leaves with just a quote... |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Removing a Gibson M&T set neck |
I sent the guitar back to the owner and told him that I wasn't interested in working on it - just too many ways it could go wrong. I included a copy of this thread. Thanks for the help and advice. |
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