Official Luthiers Forum!
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/

I want a low action on my mexican strat
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=50661		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Loveartist [ Mon May 21, 2018 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  I want a low action on my mexican strat
(See my second comment before reading all this junk, then come back if you want, sorry for putting so many wuestions in one comment)


First let me say im not a luthier, but am trying to learn to setup my guitar to my taste and im having a difficult time.

I have a 2016 mexican strat and i have the bridge hardtailed with a wooden block. I am trying to achieve a pretty low action. Most of the electric guitars I have played that I liked the feel of required almost no effort to fret the note and had low actions so thats what I am going for. However I cant seem to achieve it.

My setup process is to tighten the intonation screw all the way back, atleast at first, then lower and raise the string height at the bridge until I have a low action and every note sounds good and is easy to play. Then I am adjusting the intonation. After that I double check that every string still sounds good and is easy to play just in case I need to raise or lower the string height at the bridge again.

The A D and G string work fine with this method. The low E string does too but only after filing the nut slot down with some folded sandpaper. The B and high E string are giving me trouble. I think its some sort of nut problem because with a solid pluck of the problem strings it buzzes even when open and at max string height. (I dont have the tools to sand these two nut slots because they are so thin) Or it could just be the shimmed tremelo. Or maybe the neck pocket was not made for this type of setup.

I have tried shimming the neck at the bridge side and the headstock side with some notecard paper at various hights. The bridge side just made things worse. The headstock side may have helped a little but not much. There is only about 1/8 a turn of the truss rod from snug to the left so the neck is pretty much flat as it will go without feeling like im going to break the truss rod. A youtube video along the way advised not to toghten past snug.

My goal is to have a guitar with low action with very light press needed seems to be my preference and I am trying to find the cheapest way to get there.

So far the options and questions I have come up with are:

1. taking it to a local luthier (i live in louisville kentucky) for a new nut and a setup (90 bucks but I kinda want to be able to domit myself if needed in the future) Not sure of this would give me the playability I want though if its the bridge or neck pocket that is causing the problems.

2. Buying a new nut and trying to do it myself with or without nut files. I have some cheap diy methods and some cheap nut files on amazon, not sure of they would work though.

3. I am also considering putting a hardtail bridge in place of the tremelo bridge because I am not sure if the tremolo bridges are desigened to be blocked like that. Let me know know if this is an issue or how to make it work with the bridge shimmed like it is, or would I be better off buying a hardtail bridge and modifying the body somehow to install it. Or even better do you know of any hardtail bridges that would work without any modification to the body?

4. I was also thinking about ordering a yamaha pacifica PAC311H (because I heard they are really easy to play) and replacing one of the pickups because I hear are not balanced with the coil tap very well (480+ satuering tools?) Although every guitar electric I have bough online has had setup issues so far but I guess I could return it if its not what I want.

5. I also thought I might order a body and neck from warmoth.com (are these parts any good?) and using my strat pickups. 380 + tools and finishing supplies. Not sure if I would be able to reroute the pickups and stuff to the back though. For some reason their website wont let me select a bridge and pickups for the front routed strat body. Also who knows if I will be able to put it together right, but i like the idea of choosing my own neck style and fret wire.

6. I was also curious would sanding the neck pocket down help any?

If you have and wisdom, advice or tips to share that could help me reach my playability goal, let me know, I would surely appreciate it. :-)

Thanks a bunch!
Cody
Author:  Chris Pile [ Mon May 21, 2018 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Well, Cody.... since you obviously have no idea what constitutes proper low action or how to get there, FIRST go the luthier and have him do it. This is provided he is a competent and experienced guy at the bench. I don't mean some clown at Guitar Center. Also, because you have probably butched up parts of your guitar - expect to pay more. Then you can consider learning your setup skills and acquiring your tools.

This is THE CORE of guitar repair - setting up a guitar, nut adjusting a fabrication, etc. It's not easily comprehended by rank beginners, and it takes times to develop the skills, insight, and knowledge . You came to the right place to learn those, but you stated that your goal is playability. So.... start at your luthier, and go from there.

Good luck, and we'll see you around! I know I didn't answer all your questions. One thing at a time, OK? Welcome. Really.
Author:  SnowManSnow [ Mon May 21, 2018 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Setup still plagues me. Just finished my 7th build and ... yea it’s better but geez... I think I have an Learning disorder on guitar setup.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Author:  Loveartist [ Mon May 21, 2018 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Sorry that was a lot of questions at once. Please allow me to start over... What would you all do if you wanted a hardtail strat and setup for a a low and easy playing action? Would you block the tremelo and fix any issues at the nut? Or would you do something else, like modify the body and install a hardtail bridge?
Author:  Loveartist [ Mon May 21, 2018 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Good to hear im not alone.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Mon May 21, 2018 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Quote:
Sorry that was a lot of questions at once. Please allow me to start over... What would you all do if you wanted a hardtail strat and setup for a a low and easy playing action? Would you block the tremelo and fix any issues at the nut? Or would you do something else, like modify the body and install a hardtail bridge?


Lots of players have their whammy blocked to make a hardtail. I do it all the time. Works fine, no mods necessary. Part of the complete setup will include fixing any issues with the nut. This is NOT a job for a noob, OK? Refer to my post about seeing a competent and experienced luthier.
Author:  B. Howard [ Tue May 22, 2018 5:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Your set up process mentioned nothing of truss rod adjustment..... That must be set before you can set action height. Which should be measured and not just adjusted around until it seems right. Measuring incredibly minute distances very accurately is a big part of a set up done well.

Start by learning to adjust your truss rod. That alone will put you far beyond most guitar players as far as set up work goes.
Author:  Loveartist [ Tue May 22, 2018 7:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Thanks
Author:  Freeman [ Tue May 22, 2018 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Loveartist wrote:
Sorry that was a lot of questions at once. Please allow me to start over... What would you all do if you wanted a hardtail strat and setup for a a low and easy playing action? Would you block the tremelo and fix any issues at the nut? Or would you do something else, like modify the body and install a hardtail bridge?


I'm not a professional but I do a fair number of setups on all kinds of guitars and I always follow the same step by step procedures.

- Before I adjust anything, with the old strings on it, I measure EVERYTHING. This means the relief at the 6th fret, the action at the nut and 12th fret. I check all the frets for level and general condition and I make sure the guitar is structurally stable (neck angle, tightness of screws, hydration.

- Next I take the strings off and adjust the neck to be perfectly flat. I then do whatever is necessary to make the frets perfect. Level, crown, polish, dress the ends. You can't do a good setup if the frets aren't perfect to start with.

- Now I string it up with whatever gauge strings I'm going to use and measure the relief. In general the tension has pulled a small amount into the neck, I'll adjust it to my target value (which is normally 0.003 to 0.005 but can vary with the instrument and player). Some fenders require removing the neck to adjust, keep checking until its right.

- Once the relief is set I leave it alone. Now I measure both the action at the nut and the 12th fret (some people use 16 for an electric, I like to do everything at 12 because the math is easier (and its consistent between instruments)). I'll adjust the 12th fret action to be close to my target but maybe a hair high. I'll bring the first fret action down to my target by filing each nut slot with the appropriate size and shaped file. After getting the 1st fret action where I think I want it I double check by fretting at the 3rd fret and making sure I have just a hair of clearance at 1 (maybe 2 or 3 thousands).

- Once the nut end is where I want it I will bring the 12th fret action down to its final value. With a strat style bridge you can adjust each string action individually.

- Now that the action up and down the fretboard is correct I plug the guitar into my little strobe tuner and set the intonation. Unless the owner has requested something special I set each saddle so the fretted 12th string note plays in tune with the harmonic (and one octave higher than the open string).

Please note the order that I do things - (1) get the guitar structually perfect, get the frets perfect, (2) relief (changing relief will affect other adjustments, other adjustments will not affect relief), (3) nut (changing the nut has a small affect on the rest of the action), (4) 12th fret action (which really is the action all the way down the neck), (5) lastly, intonation (changing any of the previous things will affect intonation, changing intonation does not affect the other things).

A final test to see if you truly have the lowest possible action is to fret each string at the first fret and measure the clearance at the second. If it doesn't buzz then fret the 2nd fret and measure at 3, ideally you will have the same clearance. Now fret 3 and measure 4, again, the same. Do that all the way down the fretboard. The ideal condition is the same clearance at every fret, remember, if it didn't buzz at 1 it won't buzz anywhere else.

The next fret clearance test will also show any high frets, if you have too much or too little relief, humps and the neck joint as well as if you can take your action any lower.

The very last thing I do is write down every one of the measurements just like I did when I started (I have a spreadsheet for this).

ps - I didn't include setting or blocking a tremolo, that adds a bit to the process but actually makes it easier. Also, I didn't give specific targets for any of the settings because that is a function of how the player actually plays.

pps - Changing bridge, routing out your guitar, assembling a Warmoth or any of those other questions are kind of meaningless. Assume a guitar is structurally sound it should be possible to make the action as playable as you want.

ppps - I had a customer bring a lovely new Martin HD28 and ask for the action "as low as possible without buzzing". I did it and he brought it back asking for me to raise it back up, said he lost some of that big Martin tone. Be careful what you ask for.
Author:  Conor_Searl [ Tue May 22, 2018 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Hi Cody, Freeman's outlined the set up process really well. The reality is each one of those steps works in conjunction with the rest of them, and doing them out of order will have you chasing your tail and cause all kinds of frustration.

Learning to set up your guitar yourself is totally doable, but at this point you may want to get back to zero so to speak by taking it in for a professional set up, then measure everything as Freeman indicates when you get your guitar home and in a few months check and see how much its moved, and then adjust it using Freeman's process. Without measuring it is so easy to lose perspective, every buzz is magnified, and constantly second guess yourself, never sure if you've made it better or worse. You will develop a feel for things, but understanding how to quantify the set up process will shortcut much of the heavy lifting.

One other thing should also be noted, your strat will simply never feel like some other guitars. So if your comparing the way your guitar feels to the low action of say a les paul style guitar with a much flatter fret board and a shorter scale you'll be chasing something that is next to impossible to attain with a strat style guitar (mexican, american, or otherwise.) Again if you've played a bunch of shred style guitars, Ibanez, Jackson, ESP etc. your strat will likely never feel like that no matter how low you set your guitar up. All that is to say that part of a good set up is knowing what you can reasonably expect as the end result. Strats are my favorite electric guitars, and I find them to be hugely inspiring and rewarding instruments to play, but I also find they may be one of the most challenging electric guitars to play.
Author:  Loveartist [ Tue May 22, 2018 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Wow thank you so much freeman! What a great and in depth answer :-) I hate to even ask because you have done so much already but I have a few questions.

When you say thousands do you you mean of an inch?

Is there any way you could make a list of essential tools needed and what steps they are used for? It might actually be worth it to me to buy some if not all of them. I like the idea of being able to set up my guitar myself and be able to set up friends in the future. But some steps may simply be to expensive at the moment.

I love the spreadsheet idea for every measurement. That would keep me from shooting blind and help me learn what works and what I prefer. Could you share a example of one of yours to give me an idea of where to start? No need to reinvent the wheel so to speak. Imgur.com screenshot would be great!

Yes careful what you wish for, again I hated to ask for more, but thank you so much for your answer you are very kind. At the least I am going to do the spreadsheet just to understand the setup I have now and after, regardless if I have someone else do some of the steps. I enjoy the tinkering almost as much as the playing, so thanks again for the education :-)
Author:  Loveartist [ Tue May 22, 2018 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Thanks Cocobolo, that seems to be great advice. I like strats too, mostly because some of my favorite guitar players use/used them. I might look for another guitar then. Prolly keep the strat unless I have to sell it to get the new one. I agree taking it in first would prolly be the best of both worlds. I would be able to enjoyably play it and then tinker with it later if needed or get bored heh.

Any new guitar suggestions would be great. I played a Ernie Ball Music Man JP15 was blown away by how easy and enjoyable it was to play. Thats actually what got me tinkering with my strat, so its good to know I probably wont ever achieve the same feel with my strat. Unforturtunately $3000 is out of my range hehe.

Here are some of the JP15 specs if it would help generate some purchase ideas :-) My absolute max would be $850 but lower $400-600 would be better on my wallet.

Neck
Neck shape: John Petrucci
Neck wood: Maple
Joint: Bolt-on
Scale length: 25.5"
Truss rod: Standard
Neck finish: Oiled

Fretboard
Material: Maple
Radius: 17"
Fret size: Medium jumbo
Number of frets: 24
Inlays: JP Shield
Nut width: 1.687" (42.8mm)

Hardware
Bridge type: Tremolo/Vibrato
Bridge design: Piezo floating tremolo
Tailpiece: Not applicable
Tuning machines: Schaller locking
Color: Chrome

I actually thought the one I played was a hardtail but I was probably just not paying attention. Thank you again! :-)
Author:  Loveartist [ Tue May 22, 2018 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Hmm I decided to give my strat to my brother and look for something else. Im gonna have a luthier set it up to his taste. Thanks again! Let me know on the guitar suggestions. Or I might go the warmoth route and have the luthier put it together. :-) Yall are awesome!
Author:  Conor_Searl [ Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Without seeing either guitar the biggest difference I see is that the Ernie ball has a wider nut than a typical strat and a much flatter fret board.

Personally I adjust quickly to different nut widths on guitars, but the radius thing can really throw me for a loop. A Fender typically has a rounder fret board I think 9.5" radius is typical on a Fender, whereas the ernie ball is 17". Fretboard radius can be a big and complicated conversation, especially when you get into compound radii. But for practical purposes think of it like this the lower number radius the rounder the fret board. 7.25" being very very round, and 17" would be very flat. A smaller radius is a little harder to get a super low action with especially if you're planning on doing any bending.

One last rabbit trail, (and it's something that fascinates me) many times the limitations of a particular guitar design really informed the way our favorite players interacted with their instruments. To some degree Hendrix would always sound like Hendrix regardless of the guitar, same with Santana, or Kirk Hammett, or whoever, but there really are all these minute intricacies that cause different designs to work the way they do, and inspire us to play certain ways. A guy who predominantly played a Les Paul probably would never naturally end up with as aggressive a right hand as what Stevie Ray Vaughan had because of the shorter scale length and the height of the strings from the body, the les paul just doesn't act the same way that a strat does. Even if you play the exact same notes and have it set up to similar specs. That doesn't mean you can't play all kinds of music on just one guitar, Clapton does it all the time and he's way better than me ;) But little wing on a les paul, or la grange on strat just feels weird to me.
Author:  Freeman [ Tue May 22, 2018 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Loveartist wrote:
Wow thank you so much freeman! What a great and in depth answer :-) I hate to even ask because you have done so much already but I have a few questions.

When you say thousands do you you mean of an inch?

Is there any way you could make a list of essential tools needed and what steps they are used for? It might actually be worth it to me to buy some if not all of them. I like the idea of being able to set up my guitar myself and be able to set up friends in the future. But some steps may simply be to expensive at the moment.

I love the spreadsheet idea for every measurement. That would keep me from shooting blind and help me learn what works and what I prefer. Could you share a example of one of yours to give me an idea of where to start? No need to reinvent the wheel so to speak. Imgur.com screenshot would be great!

Yes careful what you wish for, again I hated to ask for more, but thank you so much for your answer you are very kind. At the least I am going to do the spreadsheet just to understand the setup I have now and after, regardless if I have someone else do some of the steps. I enjoy the tinkering almost as much as the playing, so thanks again for the education :-)


You are welcome. First, if you PM me an e-mail address I will send you my spread sheet and instruction on how to use it. It has two tabs, one for the measurements themselves and on is a compilation of setup specifications from a whole lot of sources - you will learn that Martin and Fender and Gibson all use somewhat different numbers which I have used to come up with mine. Again, I'll explain when I send you the file.

Second, I do all my measurements in decimal inches. If I were doing only classical guitars I might use metric units but even on them I like to be consistent. Decimal inches are so much easier to compare - I know immediately that 0.090 is a bigger gap that 0.085, but can you tell me instantly which is biggerm 5/64 or 3/32 (and by how much). I use tools that are calibrated in decimal inches and while you will often see action heights quoted in fractions of an inch I convert everything to decimal.

Basic tools that you need include a set of feeler gauges from an auto parts store. Get something like 0.002 to 0.025 inch. You will be measuring relief and first fret action with this. You can buy a "machinists rule" calibrated in 64ths but I think this is a whole lot better

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Ty ... Gauge.html

You just slide this along the frets at the 12th and look under the string to see which little mark it just sits on - that will be your 12th fret action. Another nice feature of that StewMac tool is that it is reasonably sized for rocking frets to find high ones, it does measure in there units and it comes with a set of specifications for almost any instrument you'll ever work with - these specs are pretty much the ones I uses daily.

Unfortunately if you are going to work on nuts you pretty much need a complete set of nut files to cover the string gauges you will be using. The file should be rounded on the bottom and you want to use one that is a couple of thousands of an inch larger than your string. They are expensive, there are cheap ways to go but if you do much nut work get good ones. I have four of these that covers most sizes

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Ty ... Files.html

(This is also an area you might want to have a professional tech help you with - nuts can be tricky)

If you have issues with your frets you will need tools to level and crown them. Again, for a one time deal take it to a pro

I use a 24 inch metal straight edge a lot (Lowes or Home Depot). You will need the usual set of mechanics tools - screw drivers, the tool for your truss rod, a few allen wrenches including the little one for your saddles (often a 0.050). An accurate tuner for checking intonation and I highly recommend this

http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Books/Gui ... Guide.html
Author:  Freeman [ Tue May 22, 2018 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Conor_Searl wrote:
Without seeing either guitar the biggest difference I see is that the Ernie ball has a wider nut than a typical strat and a much flatter fret board.




There are two sides to this - first, most players are able to adapt to different necks but certainly most of us prefer one over another. One of the reasons I can't understand why anyone would buy a guitar that they haven't played first. Its also one of the reasons that you might consider a custom guitar.

I happen to like wide flat necks, both on acoustics and electrics When I build an acoustic its almost always 1-3/4 at the nut and a 20 inch radius - I play a lot of slide and like the flatter f/b. On electrics I compromise at 12 inch radius (standard Gibson) and since I don't do a lot of bending compound radius boards are lost on me.

And while I can adapt do different profiles another advantage of a custom guitar (or at least playing a bunch) is that you can get the profile you want. D, C, Vee, chunky or slim, I think that makes almost more difference than width and radius. Here I am building a jazz acoustic for a guy but he wanted the neck exactly like his vintage Les Paul

Image

Image

I like that profile so much that I've used it on several other guitars
Author:  Loveartist [ Tue May 22, 2018 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Nice man, all it says about the neck profile is that its a john petrucci. I guess ill have to do some research on it if I go the custom route. Right now im looking at doing the warmoth thing for my next guitar with a luthiers help putting it together. The major downside with that though is I would not be able to try out the different neck profiles...hmm. Again thank you so much, I checked out the tools and ill prolly get that action gauge and book. Nut files not sure on, like you said prolly better to let someone with experience do it. Anyway my brother is excited about the strat I am giving him. Im actually letting him borrow it indefinately because he has a tendancy to sell things lol. That way he will always have an electric :-)

Oh ya sent you my email :-)
Author:  Freeman [ Tue May 22, 2018 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Loveartist wrote:
Right now im looking at doing the warmoth thing for my next guitar with a luthiers help putting it together. The major downside with that though is I would not be able to try out the different neck profiles...hmm.


Warmoth necks are pretty true to Fender's shapes so if you've played a Fender you like you should be able to find that profile

http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Necks/BackContours.aspx

Their necks are very high quality and I love the new Gotoh angled truss rod adjuster at the heel. No more taking the neck off to tweak the relief
Author:  Loveartist [ Wed May 23, 2018 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
I found out they have a lower cost version of the jp15 called the jp150 $3000 vs $700. So I went to guitar center today to compare the two. The neck appears to be the same shape but they didnt play the same at all. I think what I liked so much about the 15 was the finish on the back of the neck. I could slide around that thing so easily. The 150 was just like other guitars. I guess I have really grippy palms and had never played a oil and wax neck. I think that was the part that blew me away about the 15, of course the action and shape were great too. I guess I need to figure out how to, or have someone do that finish on whatever guitar/neck I get. Prolly for a different post though. Thanks again guys!
Author:  Conor_Searl [ Wed May 23, 2018 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Haha, I feel like I just had this oil and waxed neck conversation with Freeman a week or so ago about a finish repair I had botched on the neck of a bass guitar. I really love oiled necks too. I always find film finishes like lacquer or poly (even satin finishes) to be sticky for my hands. Maybe I drink too much coffee or something. ;)

I have a '57 reissue strat that I sanded the neck down to wood and oiled with a product called Osmo. It's actually an oil/wax combo for hard wood floors, it works great on necks. The only downside and its not really a negative, you just have to reapply every now and then, I play guitar several hours a day because I teach a lot of guitar lessons, and I just reapplied the oil to a tele neck I built about a year ago.
Author:  Conor_Searl [ Wed May 23, 2018 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Freeman wrote:

Image

Image



Freeman what is this tool called that you're using to measure the neck contour? I found some cheap thing similar to this for measuring moulding curves, but it's super stiff and kind of sharp.
Author:  Loveartist [ Wed May 23, 2018 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Lol same here, I dont drink coffe tho heh. Thanks for the osmo recommendation ill give it a look. I found a video a video on youtube where a guy used birchwood casey true oil, then gun stock wax by brichwood casey as well. Im wondering if just the wax would work on top of a satin or glossy finish? Who knows :-) Anyway thanks again, take care :-)
Author:  Conor_Searl [ Wed May 23, 2018 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
A little wax makes things slick, too much gets super sticky.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Thu May 24, 2018 7:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
Conor_Searl wrote:
Freeman wrote:

Image

Image



Freeman what is this tool called that you're using to measure the neck contour? I found some cheap thing similar to this for measuring moulding curves, but it's super stiff and kind of sharp.
Contour gauge. The ones with metal pins are too sharp an scratchy. Look for one that is made up of narrow plastic blades.
Author:  Freeman [ Thu May 24, 2018 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I want a low action on my mexican strat
SteveSmith wrote:
Conor_Searl wrote:
Freeman what is this tool called that you're using to measure the neck contour? I found some cheap thing similar to this for measuring moulding curves, but it's super stiff and kind of sharp.
Contour gauge. The ones with metal pins are too sharp an scratchy. Look for one that is made up of narrow plastic blades.


Yes, I think it was originally designed to reproduce molding. I bought mine from Grizzly

http://www.grizzly.com/search/?q=(contour+AND+gauge)+OR+(contour+OR+gauge)

http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Plas ... auge/H7378

You can use it for duplicating carved tops and all sorts of cool little uses. I put a piece of masking tape on whatever I'm duplicating to keep from scratching.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/