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Many unglued braces...
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=49828		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Conor_Searl [ Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Many unglued braces...
I have a friend's Alvarez artist series guitar. The strap came off when another friend was playing it and it landed on its face on a mic stand or something and got a pretty nasty crack. The crack closed up to practically invisible on its own, so that's a pretty easy fix. It also popped the braces off inside right where the crack happened which are also a pretty straightforward fix. However after closely inspecting the guitar inside I've found a total of 11 spots (including the two that I expected) where I can slide a .003 feeler gauge between the brace and the top of the guitar. Looking at the quality of gluing that went on at the time of construction, it seems unlikely that this one fall is the cause of all the loose braces, but maybe?

This guitar has already had a couple cracks in the top fixed with glue and cleats between the bridge and bottom of the guitar, from drying out too much. I'm on the westcoast but the guitar came from the prairies where its very dry and cold. I know without first hand experience its impossible to give me a definitive answer, but is it reasonable to think most of these loose braces are from exposure to the cold dry climate, and not necessarily from the impact of the fall? I ask because the friend that dropped the guitar wants to pay for the repair, but I don't feel like I can in good conscience only repair the obvious damage at this point, but I'm not sure how much is her responsibility and how much was pre-existing? They are both great friends and totally understanding about the situation.

Then the question also arises, fixing a crack in the top, plus re-gluing 11 spots on the braces will probably come up to the price of a brand new Seagull S6 with a pickup. This guitar is a little nicer than that but still...

Conor
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Many unglued braces...
There is no way to know, even if I had the guitar in hand to inspect it.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Many unglued braces...
I price repairs such as this one by an estimated number of sessions that it will take me using best practices and even some unique, time saving tooling to do the repairs.

You're right, based on the quantity of things to address alone with some being more difficult to do than others AND depending on the going rates in your area repairing this one would be competitive with the price of a lower level, brand new Seagull. We often will say to clients that the economics are not there and that they would be better off buying a new Seagull. We recommend Seagull by the way because we believe in Godin, the parent and how they pay a living wage to their employees AND they are able to manufacture a decent product in North America. We see less and less of this so we support it when we can.

Anyway this happens to us a couple of times a week where the economics are not there but that's ultimately not my decision to make. Simply provide the quotation, don't spend much time on it, build in some padding since these things often are worse than we know and let it ride.

I know this is a friend of yours so this is non applicable but in our world these ones where the repair costs exceed the market value of the guitar when repaired have dangers for the Luthier even if the client does agree to the work. Because it will be pricey for many people AND because what will result is an older guitar that now has decent bracing but is still the sum of it's parts there are higher than normal chances that the owner will stick you with the guitar.... Or in other words when push comes to shove with their budget and the resulting guitar is not anticipated to be any better than it was pre-accident-abuse folks tend to abandon these instruments more often than instruments in better shape. Because of our recognition of these situations now in advance where we once suffered from maybe two abandoned instruments annually we not rarely have any.

We're doing less and less of these bigger jobs that require multiple sessions and are basically being done out of an "emotional" decision by the owner. Our daily work is more profitable, we get paid more reliably and faster, and there is less risk. But if it's likely to be a wall hanger the risk is very high for abandonment.... Again this does not apply to you.

If it's a friend, if your not busy as can be with other jobs and if you wish to do so go for it. If not recognize that the greatest occupation hazard for repair Luthiers is the wrongful.... thought that we have to be all things to all folks. I could even make the case that if you don't do what it takes to be profitable and instead fall into the trap of attempting to repair every POS that someone "won" on eBay your business will fail and you will be nothing to anyone.

But again if you have the time, inclination and motivation go for it, this is not something that anyone else can answer for you. I can point out the risks based on the experience of thousands of repaired instruments and human interactions but ultimately only you can answer as to what you wish to do.

We sometimes suggest that one option is to list it for sale for say $50 as a "project guitar" needing things with the anticipation being that someone who aspires to be a Luthiers will be willing to lose their soul on the thing. Just one more option that does not always mean the scrap pile.
Author:  Freeman [ Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Many unglued braces...
Conor, I don't know where you are in your lutherie/repair journey but for me, a relative novice, this might be an opportunity to remove the back and do the repairs with an open box. As you know, the Artist series is not an expensive guitar (typically 400 or so US) and they have a dovetail joint. You would have to pull the neck, route the back binding off, open the seam (probably AR or PVC glue so it will be difficult but possible). You'll have to deal with back braces inlet into the sides and probably best to reattach the top braces with a radius dish ion a go-bar. Put it all back together, deal with binding, finish and setting the neck. I can pretty much promise that the guitar won't be beautiful but it might be functional and you will learn a heck of a lot.

This is not the sort of thing I would expect Hesh to take on - he is in business to make money when he does a repair (I have the highest respect for his ability to turn away work that doesn't make sense). It is precisely the kind if thing I MIGHT take on, a learning experience without too much danger of screwing up a nice guitar, with the possibility that you can save a poor broken instrument.

Since you are doing the work for a friend I would expect payment in beer, maybe a really nice bottle of wine if it comes out good.
Author:  truckjohn [ Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Many unglued braces...
For a friend I would do it. Its a hobby for me - and so I wouldn't factor in the value of the instrument.

One of my buddies inherited a 1970's Aria that his dad had played. It needed some work - so I took care of it for him. It was the only thing he had left from his dad...
Author:  Conor_Searl [ Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Many unglued braces...
I had some free time, so I decided to try and take the neck off this guitar, the owner doesn't want it anymore so It's been waiting for a rainy day to try Freeman's experiment.

There's no obvious bolt inside, so I assumed this was a dovetail joint. (I'm learning assuming and rushing are cardinal sins in this lutherie world). Anyway I thought I did my research and understand the concept behind removing an acoustic guitar neck, but I proceeded to make a mess of things anyway.

I got the iron out and heated the fingerboard over the body and using a knife separated it from the top of the guitar. (I realize I was impatient and did a poor job of this part, I won't do that again.) I then pulled the 15th fret and drilled a couple holes in the fret slot, I felt the bit give way and I could slide my steam needle in much farther than the needle so I assumed I hit the dovetail. Anyway, much steam later, and the only movement I got was from the back of the guitar separating from the sides and the neck joint. :shock: It seems everything wanted to come apart except for the neck joint. I had planned to take the back off the guitar anyway, to reglue all the braces with go bars so I took it off. The neck joint looks really strange, did I inadvertantly stumble across a dowelled joint or a spanish heel, something other than a typical dovetail?
Author:  Freeman [ Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Many unglued braces...
The dark wood below the truss rod looks kind of like a dovetail and I based my statement that they had a dovetail joint on their web page. Here is a typical example, look down near the bottom where it says "additional details"

http://alvarezguitars.com/guitar/ab60ce/

However just because its a dovetail doesn't necessarily mean it will come apart
Author:  Conor_Searl [ Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Many unglued braces...
Freeman wrote:
The dark wood below the truss rod looks kind of like a dovetail...


I see what you're seeing now. I think you're right.

Freeman wrote:
However just because its a dovetail doesn't necessarily mean it will come apart


Would reasons for this be either glue was slopped all over the inside of the joint, (assuming that the dark wood is in fact the top of the dovetail the cheeks still look firmly attached to the neck block) or an epoxy or some other kind of glue that doesn't soften with heat was used? I got a lot of steam into the joint, so much so that when I had the back of the guitar off I could see moisture leaching through the wood of the end block. The binding and the top of the guitar is also separating. So everything seems to be coming apart except for what I want. :?
Author:  Freeman [ Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Many unglued braces...
Conor_Searl wrote:
Would reasons for this be either glue was slopped all over the inside of the joint, (assuming that the dark wood is in fact the top of the dovetail the cheeks still look firmly attached to the neck block) or an epoxy or some other kind of glue that doesn't soften with heat was used? I got a lot of steam into the joint, so much so that when I had the back of the guitar off I could see moisture leaching through the wood of the end block. The binding and the top of the guitar is also separating. So everything seems to be coming apart except for what I want. :?


I am certainly not an expert in this but I would say both possibilities could be true. Normally with a dovetail the only glue you need is on the angled portion of the joint (and you really don't need much, the wedging action of the joint is what pulls it together. You don't put any glue on the cheeks. And as you know, the easiest joints to get apart are HHG but its pretty unlikely that Alvarez used that on an inexpensive guitar. AR and PVA glues will come apart with enough heat and moisture but if thats what they used on the rest of the guitar its going to come apart too.

My only experience here is with an old Yamaha that I tried to steam the neck off - it wouldn't budge so I sawed it off and converted to bolt on.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Many unglued braces...
It also depends on what kind of glue was used. Even if it is a dovetail, if it is glued on with some of the glue they use in Asia for assembly, it might not release very well even with steam. Freeman's reference to the old Yamaha may be the best direction - cut it off and make it into a bolt on. Either way, it's valuable experience.
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