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Need thoughts on a Seagull 12 string set-up
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=47606		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Trfsrfr [ Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Need thoughts on a Seagull 12 string set-up
My brother apparently trusted in my luthier ability enough (WTF?) to ship me his 12 string Seagull, Model 29358, Coastline S-12 Cedar, as seen here;
http://www.seagullguitars.com/seagull_c ... cedar.html,
from MN to AZ.

He claimed it had a broken truss rod, and I have zero experience with 12-strings.

When it arrived, the up-bow on the neck was 1/2" from fretboard to strings. So I tuned it to 440, then put an allen key into the sound hole and gave it a couple clock-wise cranks. This helped much with the action, and I am sure the truss is working in this direction. But if you click on the link above, you will see that the company claims that this guitar has a dual-action truss rod; and if it exists, I am unaware of how it functions. I put 1 crank into the truss before it did anything at all, so I am sure it was very loose.

Even though this guitar has only been here a couple days and the climate differences between the two states are great, I've loosened the strings to next to zero tension, but still have to crank the truss up to it's very tightest limits to make the fretboard get even close to straight, which it's not.

I thought I would let it hang for a couple weeks for it to acclimatize, but right off the bat I am thinking something isn't right, even for the cheapest 12 string you can buy.
Should the truss adjustment need to be this tight right now?
Could the string gauge be too high, or could the truss rod be too light and over-powered? Is this just a poorly designed and built guitar?
He obviously loosened the truss (rod making his action worse, which is why he sent it to me), and he told me it did sit in this condition for 10 months before he shipped to me.

Thoughts?
Author:  Chris Pile [ Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need thoughts on a Seagull 12 string set-up
Many folks think the truss rod adjusts the neck/body joint.... Perhaps it needs a neck reset? How's the top doing?

Also, in my experience Seagull stuff is very good quality... though maybe a clinker gets by now and then.
Author:  Trfsrfr [ Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need thoughts on a Seagull 12 string set-up
@Chris -
The top? Top of what?
And what is a neck reset? And how would I know if it needed one? This is a new term to me, but I also own a 1980 Takamine 6-string that has also become problematic for playing and tuning recently.
I have 30+ years playing experience, Erlewine's repair and set-up book, and Hiscock's, and Oakam's, but they dont really seem to help much, or maybe I am just not getting it.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need thoughts on a Seagull 12 string set-up
Quote:
or maybe I am just not getting it.


^^^ Probably this. ^^^
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need thoughts on a Seagull 12 string set-up
1) Seagulls are well made, decent guitars that represent real value in my experience with them which is considerable. They are also made by a responsible company often using locally sourced woods.

2) The guitar should not have been shipped to a very different climate for a fix and any decent local Luthier should have been able to handle this. We don't and won't accept shipped in work so no shilling here.... The reason we don't accept shipped in work is primarily because of how many guitars are damaged in shipment these days.

3) Acoustic guitars are very different animals from electrics and MUCH more sensitive to RH changes. If you cannot reliably simulate 40 - 50% RH for reclamation you should not be working on the guitar. This means a stable RH environment in your shop AND a calibrated or checked hygrometer that actually works....

4) My approach in my controlled RH environment would be to check the neck bolts, they are under a paper label that can be carefully removed with naphtha to expose the bolts. Newer models may have a wood plate with double stick tape hiding the bolts. If under string tension, tuned to pitch you see any gaps in the neck heel/body joint the neck bolts are loose and tightening them will likely restore proper neck angle.

5) With the guitar having been acclimated to that 40 - 50% RH range for say a week and the neck bolts tightened with the neck in it's f*ctory position then you can attempt to set it up.

6) All of this likely happened because in your brother's climate humidifying an acoustic guitar is a MUST and it was permitted to severely dry out. Your climate is dry too for an acoustic without supplemental RH management.

7) Truss rods should never be turned more that 1/8th to 1/4 of a turn at one time without checking progress. If the rod feels like it's bottoming out stop turning it..... All rod adjustments are done tuned to pitch with string tension.

I suspect that if it did not crack or dry out too badly that the geometry can be mostly recovered if not completely recovered by the process I detailed above and then this is when we set things up but never before addressing if the guitar is dry.

12's require very good set-ups since they are on the cusp of being hard to play anyway. Dialing in the instrument should only be done once it's geometry is restored or corrected as need be. If the instrument is pretty new I doubt that it needs a neck reset, removing and changing the neck angle, a BIG job if you have not done it prior.

Regarding a double action rod it will work to bend the neck back or forward and is a very welcome thing these days and in your brother's case may save the guitar if there is any permanent dimensional instability now that it's been permitted to dry out. You will feel a middle spot in the rod where it seems to do nothing and then turning counter clockwise (1/8 turn at a time...) it should bend the neck forward and turning clockwise will bend the neck into back bow.

What I have shared here will tell you if the instrument can be set-up. I would recommend that it goes to a qualified Luthier where your brother lives since it has to be shipped back anyway. Your RH climate is very different from his and that will change any work that you do at your end when he receives it at his end UNLESS you both are maintaining the guitar in the same RH range.

Regarding "getting-it" and no disrespect intended. Lutherie is both a craft and a art and requires vast knowledge and experience to get through some of these things. We use the word Luthier to describe as it has been defined as folks who work on stringed instruments either building or repairing. We do not have anything that restricts the use of the term requiring demonstrated proficiency meaning anyone can call themselves a Luthier even when twisting a screw driver on a import strat is the extent of their knowledge and experience. Again.... not trying to be disrespectful but the guitar should have never been shipped, the issues should have been resolved locally, and if you don't understand neck angles, body joints, RH, and what the set-up goals and specs for a 12 are perhaps you should ship it back and advise your brother to take it local.

We see several hundred dry guitars including Seagulls annually and dry guitars are pretty common. Sellers rarely advise folks that owning an acoustic guitar is also a commitment in caring for it in terms of the climate control. As such guitars dry out. Part of the fix here should be educational for your brother regarding RH and the need in his climate to humidify either his home, a room or the guitar kept in a case with a quality, serviced and maintained case humidifier.

Part of the whole nine yards with dry guitars is also looking for the following:

1) Loose braces
2) Lifting bridges
3) Cracks
4) Sharp fret ends, the neck wood shrinks when dry the metal frets don't making them feel sharp
Author:  Trfsrfr [ Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need thoughts on a Seagull 12 string set-up
Hesh,
Thank you for your thoughts. I do agree that he should have taken it to a local luthier, but he didn't, and it arrived on my door.
But now all of that is out of the scenario because the guitar is now mine, and will not be getting shipped back.

I will check the neck bolts and look for other signs that you mentioned and report back in a week or two.
Author:  Trfsrfr [ Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need thoughts on a Seagull 12 string set-up
Update-
We had a day and a half of rain here a few days ago and I let this thing sit out in the garage and soak it up. It appears to have been beneficial. I retuned and re-adjusted the truss and have since been playing it since, and it sounds nice. The action isn't great, but at the lower frets it plays. Past the 5th or 6th fret, not so much. The neck still has an upbow that adjusting the truss just wont get rid of.

Wanting to hear what the manufacturer thinks, I sent an email to Seagull guitars mentioning the tight truss rod setting, below is their response;
"The rod should be that tight.
The guitar was factory fitted with .010-.047 strings, but you may have to tune it a step down and use a capo at the 2nd fret to give the neck (and the rod) a bit of a break."

Edit: Also, I did check the neck bolts, and added nearly a 1/2 turn to each.
Latest edit: The response from mfg was an error, and they emailed me again and said that the truss rod wasn't supposed to be that tight.
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