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Notching New Saddles
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=46246		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Fret [ Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Notching New Saddles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJsLKfrttaU

These two guys from Stewmac show how to notch saddles but if you listen closely the older guy doesn't quite agree with the younger guy concerning the method he uses on the wound string saddles.
They both agree on the unwound string saddles.
I also disagree that Gibson hammers on strings to set notches. Do you thing Gibson ruins a set of strings on every guitar they make?

Is this video the way to notch saddles? I have to notch new Les Paul saddles this evening.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Notching New Saddles
The OLD GUY is Dan Erlewine, one of the most respected repair guys of all time. So learn his name, OK?

That said, I NEVER would tap with a hammer. I love using any of my arsenal of files for a job like this. In fact, I recently purchased a "feather file" from StewMac, which has knife point edges to start slots in nuts and bridges.
Looks like this: http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/ ... 0UfObg.jpg
Author:  Fret [ Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Notching New Saddles
That looks like a wood file for wood and Tusq. I will be using a small metal file.
I think I will use unwound strings for all 6 saddles and tap an indentation. Getting perfect spacing is the issue.
No sense filing until all 6 are perfect.

It doesn't look like Erlwine approves of the younger guys method. It looks like he almost started to say something when the young guy used the cutter on the saddles.
Author:  dzsmith [ Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Notching New Saddles
I would never use my nut slot files for this despite seeing it on the web.
I bought replacement saddles for a TOM bridge from StuMac. They are steel, and you would have to whack the heck out of them if using the hammer method.
A small file works great, no special tool required.
Author:  Fret [ Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Notching New Saddles
Well the job is done but I did not do very well. This is my first attempt spacing out strings on metal. All I can say is that it is better than the spacing I had.
This was harder than I thought. Took longer too. The ABR1 must be steel. This was not a fun job.

The hard part is getting the spacing equal. I used a caliper and still did a crummy job.

If I try a second time to renotch new saddles I will use a sharp blade like a knife or chisel to make a mark to file into.
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Notching New Saddles
What Chris said - Dan's a legend and our personal friend too!

You can use nut files and I do it but I do respect the view that using them on metal will dull them a bit quicker. Chris back in the day when you were doing more repairs I'll bet you saw a lot of brass nuts? We still see them but not very often.

The only thing that I would add is we follow up with the green stew-mac fret polishing wheels chucked in a Dr*mel with the wheel sharpened on a file and then we use it to polish the notches to prevent string breakage and then call it a day.

BTW Dan got his start in the same shop that we took over several years ago. Back then Dan was a player too and hung out with the likes of Iggy Pop and the Stooges! He's a great guy and he visits us from time to time and has shot lots of video for "Trade Secrets" in our shop too - always great time!
Author:  Chris Pile [ Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Notching New Saddles
Quote:
You can use nut files and I do it but I do respect the view that using them on metal will dull them a bit quicker. Chris back in the day when you were doing more repairs I'll bet you saw a lot of brass nuts? We still see them but not very often.


Since my industrial training was in auto mechanics and then tool and die making (high skill machinist), I became very fond of the file as a hand tool. It's definitely my fave go-to tool, and I have a multitude of sets and types. I haven't counted, but I easily have over 150 files of all kinds, for woodworking and metal. They range in size and variety from big vixen files (a body shop file whose shape can be changed - works great on curved surfaces), to some tiny Grobet die sinker files (over $100 back in the 80's). I have a set just for brass nuts, two sets for bone and wood nuts, plus rifflers, rasps, four-in-hand files, and the like for wood. I have some specialty files I use only for frets. Many of my files were modified for special jobs by me, whether safed edges, or ground shapes for tight places. And they are all arranged in tool boards, grouped in plastic tubes, and plastic or leather roll ups. To maintain all these files, I have a variety of file cleaning brushes, and have cleaned files with muriatic acid or crushed walnuts in the sand blaster. I love my files!
Author:  Ruby50 [ Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Notching New Saddles
Don' be worried about dulling files, they can be easily and cheaply resharpened by a soak in some sort of acid. Muriatic works in a few minutes on a file the size of a nut file, but it is safer for an amateur to test first and use a weaker acid like citric acid. And if you feel a little apprehensive, Boggs will sharpen them for you for a couple dollars each.

http://www.boggstool.com

Here is page 4 of a thread on Frank Ford's site about this where someone actually sent nut files to them - see about 1/2 way down.

http://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/s ... 4#comments

I have done perhaps a dozen files on my own with success (after sacrificing a few to learning how to do it), and I have sent perhaps a dozen to Boggs with fabulous success - better than new.

Now you can buy all those beat up files with interesting shapes at garage sales for a nickel or a dime and make them like new

Ed
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Notching New Saddles
Chris Pile wrote:
Quote:
You can use nut files and I do it but I do respect the view that using them on metal will dull them a bit quicker. Chris back in the day when you were doing more repairs I'll bet you saw a lot of brass nuts? We still see them but not very often.


Since my industrial training was in auto mechanics and then tool and die making (high skill machinist), I became very fond of the file as a hand tool. It's definitely my fave go-to tool, and I have a multitude of sets and types. I haven't counted, but I easily have over 150 files of all kinds, for woodworking and metal. They range in size and variety from big vixen files (a body shop file whose shape can be changed - works great on curved surfaces), to some tiny Grobet die sinker files (over $100 back in the 80's). I have a set just for brass nuts, two sets for bone and wood nuts, plus rifflers, rasps, four-in-hand files, and the like for wood. I have some specialty files I use only for frets. Many of my files were modified for special jobs by me, whether safed edges, or ground shapes for tight places. And they are all arranged in tool boards, grouped in plastic tubes, and plastic or leather roll ups. To maintain all these files, I have a variety of file cleaning brushes, and have cleaned files with muriatic acid or crushed walnuts in the sand blaster. I love my files!


Chris your background is much like Dave Collins's background, machinist, etc. and Dave is a file fan too and has since made me one. We have hundreds of files too with many of them dedicated to special jobs and safed as well.

For me over the years I have become pretty fond of some of my files especially for nut making because a good old file seems to be very predictable and true and in my hands I'll take any help that I can get...:)

For milling in fall-away we have attached handles to some files and I was amazed to learn that a filed metal surface is way smother, almost shiney. I would have though that a file would tear it up but that's not the case.

Files are cool and I'm told that good ones can last a life time and beyond.

Ed yep I just read a thread on FRETS.net about sharpening files and that was good information for me too. I have a pile of nut files that I replaced mostly because they are clogged with dental fillings that we use to fill low nut slots. I think the acid bath may do the trick - thanks for that!
Author:  Fret [ Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Notching New Saddles
I had a file. The prob is filing in the exact place. I used calipers and remeasured after every slot was started. If you are .002" off the caliper will detect it. Your eye detects it second.
If you go up to any guitar I bet 99% of them have irregular string spacing at the ABR type saddles because without a jig it is extremely difficult to cut precisely spaced notches..

My goal was 3/8" gap between every string.(9.5mm)
Author:  Chris Pile [ Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Notching New Saddles
As a longtime machinist here, pretty hard to detect .002 with calipers repeatably. AND - the important part here - find me a player who can tell that a string is .002 off.....

Keep in mind, some folks like the strings centered, and some like the gaps between the strings even. There IS a difference, however slight. What you or your client wants - that's what matters.
Author:  Fret [ Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Notching New Saddles
To measure the 5 gaps I locked down my calipers at 9.5mm and slide then into each gap at the saddle. They should just barely slide in. Just like setting valve clearance on an engine. If you want 10.5mm gap or whatever that is fine but the gap should be the same between all the strings.

To get 5 symmetric gaps is very hard to achieve. So far I have only got 4 of the 5 perfectly equal.
I'm having to swap saddles around between two ABR1 bridges to get the gaps precise. The one gap that isn't quite exactly 9.5mm is the low E gap. I see less problems with letting that gap be the odd one. I will go back at it tonight to see if I can swap a saddle and get that low E gap set to exactly 9.5mm as well.

What I am suspecting here is that nobody really looks at this gap. Anybody can cut a notch but without a jig it is tough to get symmetry across the length of the bridge.

Everybody is into intonation where the 12th fret is the exact center length of a string but turn that process perpendicular and nobody even looks at that symmetry issue.
Author:  dzsmith [ Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Notching New Saddles
I notch the saddles by first aligning the strings on the fretboard, then put marks on the saddles on both sides of each string. I usually am not able to perfectly locate the bridge post holes in respect to the string paths.
Author:  Fret [ Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Notching New Saddles
Fender Strats use individual saddles of equal width which sit side by side. This determines the string gap of all 6 strings. Thus Fender uses a symmetric string spacing method.

Les Paul ABR1 bridge saddles have to be cut. I used symmetric spacing on the string gaps.

Erlewine also teaches a graduated spacing method and I was just sent a graduated ruler to set this graduated spacing.
Yet Erlewine did not mention any gauge what so ever when he did his video on notching Les Paul saddles.

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Types_of_Tools/Straightedges/String_Spacing_Rule.html
Author:  Dave Rickard [ Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Notching New Saddles
Hesh wrote:

Ed yep I just read a thread on FRETS.net about sharpening files and that was good information for me too. I have a pile of nut files that I replaced mostly because they are clogged with dental fillings that we use to fill low nut slots. I think the acid bath may do the trick - thanks for that!


I've used the acid used to clean air conditioner coils to sharpen my files. That seemed to work okay for me.
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