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How to improve a harmony Archtop?
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=43553		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Foxfish [ Thu May 29, 2014 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  How to improve a harmony Archtop?
Hi everybody :)
I am not very experienced with guitar building but I am a traditional boatbuilder, I have been working with wood & composites for over 35 years.
I recently got into tenor guitars & bought a 1962 Harmony Monterey Leader 950 tenor guitar a few days ago.
It had collapsed F holes but on closer inspection I found it had loose braces so I took the top off.
Anyway I gave it a complete rebuild including a new fretboard however it sounds awful!!
I now realise that these were never very good sounding.
So first of all why does it sound so dull?
What can I do?

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Author:  cphanna [ Thu May 29, 2014 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
Let's establish this up front: I'm no expert on Harmony instruments. Many, many years ago, I was given a Regal archtop with a broken neck and a delaminated plywood top that was coming unglued. I took off the back, checked he braces (did not replace them), put it back together, re-laminated the top and rebound it. Also made a new neck. It sounded awful for a while. But the more I played it, the better it sounded. Never like a high end, carved top arch top, you understand. But better. Ergo, my advice: Play the heck out of it for as many times a day as you can stand to do so and repeat the process for a few weeks. That's a pretty big body on your tenor. Maybe go with a slightly heavier gauge set of strings than you are using at the moment. One way or the other, if you are lucky, it'll start sounding better. I sure hope it does. I think it's a pretty instrument. Just my take on things. I hope it turns out okay for you.
Author:  Foxfish [ Fri May 30, 2014 12:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
Thanks for your input [:Y:]
I wonder if pressing the top had an effect on the wood because it looks like a great piece of solid birch, perhaps it is over braced?
Author:  Lonnie J Barber [ Fri May 30, 2014 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  How to improve a harmony Archtop?
I've rebuilt an old Kay Archtop. A harmony's cousin. I love mine for various reasons. First and formost I grew up playing a Kay Archtop. So it's totally sentimental. The sound it has is it very own. I've never heard another guitar sound like it does. It has a great carved spruce top,beautiful white plastic? Trimmed F holes. To be honest it probably never sounded very good. It sounds like a big ol Kay guitar from the forties. So I fixed her up nice put an old Kay pickup on it,neon strings. Put it in a brand new case. Now anytime I'm feeling nostalgic. I go and look at it. If I want to play a guitar that sounds GOOD I get out my Alvarez classical lay my ear on the upper belt and strum to my hearts content. But like he said play it a lot maybe you'll grow to like it. Set it up for slide they sound great like that. Good guitar hang onto it.


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Author:  Foxfish [ Sat May 31, 2014 1:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
I replaced the bridge & tried some different string... much better now... is there a trick to get a perfect seat with the bridge?

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Author:  Haans [ Sat May 31, 2014 6:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
Yes. You stick some 100 grit on the top and keeping the bridge vertical, grasp it with thumbs and index fingers and move back and forth over the correct position on the sandpaper on the top. Stew Mac has a mandolin jig, but it works on bridges with adjustable saddles. You can also make one similar, with some sort of clamp to hold the bridge. It will give you a more accurate fit.
Author:  cphanna [ Sat May 31, 2014 8:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
Hi again, Foxfish. Haans has it just right on the bridge fit. The only two things I'll add are: 1. Mark the bottom of your bridge with chalk or graphite so you can check your progress as you sand it to fit. 2. Don't move your bridge through too much distance as you sand it. Just a half inch or so of forward, backward motion, because the curve of your top is probably not constant. You just want to sand right where the bridge will be located. (Oh....point 2.5: Put some tape over the sound holes to keep sanding dust out of the box)

I'm glad it's sounding better for you. I love old archtops--low end, high end doesn't matter to me. When I first looked at yours, I didn't study the pictures closely. I'd have sworn it was a laminated top. But looking again later, yes, I can clearly see that it's a solid wood top. That's a real cool old tenor guitar you've got there. Nice!
Author:  Lonnie J Barber [ Sat May 31, 2014 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
Yep Haans is right on. Same way to fit a fiddle bridge also


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Author:  dzsmith [ Sat May 31, 2014 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
Nothing important to add other than you did a wonderfull rebuild on it. Look's swell!
Author:  Michael [ Sat May 31, 2014 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
Great job but are the tuners on backwards?

Michael
Author:  Foxfish [ Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
LOL yes well spotted with the tuners but I just wanted to get her tuned up before ordering some better vintage style or possibly black ones.
I sanded the bridge as suggested but when the strings are tight the fit was still not very good. So I made up an epoxy & maple dust mix, placed a piece of cling film on the top, set the bridge on a bed of the mix & fitted the strings.
Not checked the result as yet (just got up Sunday morning) but hopefully it will have set rock hard over night.
I am going to have a go at making a pick guard next...
Author:  Foxfish [ Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
well it works!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gbe1-lGMBw
Author:  dzsmith [ Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
Foxfish wrote:
well it works!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gbe1-lGMBw

Awesome! Music to my ears!
Author:  Foxfish [ Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
Just the fretboard markers to fit now....

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Author:  Foxfish [ Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
Well I got the guitar finished but I am still not happy with the sound in fact it is pretty bad!
I took the back off & trimmed down the bracing but to be honest I could not tell any difference in the sound or tone :?
So... what can I do to get her sounding better, I was thinking about replacing the whole soundboard?
I am prepared to have a go a shaping up a new top, do you think this would get her a new voice?

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Author:  cphanna [ Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
You might need to just play the heck out of it for a while. It was probably idle for a long time when you acquired it. If I were going to go to the trouble of making a new top, I think I'd just make a whole new guitar.

What string gauges did you settle on? Earlier, you said changing strings made a positive difference. Maybe it just wants heavier gauges.
Author:  Foxfish [ Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
I have tried a few string sets, presently in CGDA 10, 16, 26, 36 so pretty heavy, my normal set on my other 23" scale tenors are 10,14,24,32.
I think it is the soundboard that just has no life, it is just dull.
I really want to get this one sorted.
Author:  cphanna [ Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
I'm getting in over my head trying to advise you, but I think a .10 gauge high E is still awfully light. The thing is, you have shaved off some of your internal braces, so now you shouldn't risk over-loading them with tension. Furthermore, you do have a top that is not straight, vertical grain all the way through. I really don't know what to tell you to do about that, but I've already told you I'd rather build a whole new guitar than ditch this top.

I use a string set on my six string arch top with an .11 high E. It's still not heavy enough to properly drive my top in acoustic mode. It does okay, but I have a hunch that a set starting with a .12 would be a lot better acoustically. I seldom play mine un-amplified, so I am okay with my string gauges for my purposes. But this is all so personal when it comes down to our own instruments.

I think you've just got a guitar that needs time to wake up and learn to vibrate again, and it also needs to find just the right set of strings. I think you need to be patient with this old girl--very gentle and patient. That's a hunch.

Then, too, you've got to remember that she's an arch top and she's never going to sound like a flat top. I don't know what your expectations are, but they need to be within the possibilities of the instrument. I think you've got a cool old instrument here. Let her be what she wants to be and be gentle coaxing the best out of her.

There are arch top guys on this forum who know SOOOOO much more than I do. I sure hope they will chime in again soon.
Author:  Foxfish [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
No, I really value your comments, the standard tuning uses an 'A' string not an 'E' though & .10 is most definitely the limit on a 23" scale :) In fact most tenor guitar players need to carry spare A strings as they do pop (always at the worst time)
What is termed as 'Irish tuning' uses G,D,A,E & normally an .12 for the E but I much prefer the traditional tuning, as for me it is what makes the tenor sound so sweet ... or not in this case LOL..
I will keep playing her & see what happens but I have a strong desirer to do something more...
The spruce top just looks so cool but I think that the beautiful grain is the source of her issues....
Author:  cphanna [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
Regarding the tuning: See? I just proved what have been admitting all along--that I'm no expert! Furthermore, I'm too lazy to learn a new tuning mode, for my tenor banjo, so it's tuned just like the high four strings of my guitar. I just naturally (and ignorantly) went into "E string" thought mode. Oh well. I still think my basic point about giving it time to wake up again is sound.
Author:  Foxfish [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
Lol that is terrible :) the basic cords shapes are really easy with CGDA & the sound is worth the effort!
Did you watch my vid a few post up?
Author:  cphanna [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
The laugh is on me! But lots of tenor banjo players used to do that when they doubled on guitar--and vice versa. I'm mostly a guitar player who thought it would be cool to double on tenor banjo for a few of the real old tunes. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it, even though I know it's not the most artistic way to approach these things. Anyway, this is why I really wish someone who knew more about arch top tenor guitars would chime in. I watched your video and didn't hear a lot of bass. I don't know if that was a result of the recording mode or the guitar itself. Seems to me (and I'll guess to you, too) that a big bodied guitar like that should be delivering some more bottom. I don't know specifically what to tell you, except that you play tenor guitar a heck of a lot better than I ever would! Also, I think you've got a real cool instrument there. I like your cosmetic modifications, too. I don't see any evidence of a truss rod, so I understand your point about keeping the strings light for that scale length. All I can say for sure is just don't give up on it. Give it some time before your take it apart again.
Author:  Foxfish [ Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to improve a harmony Archtop?
So, I tried a different approach with quite good results!
I striped her down & sanded the whole guitar back to bare wood.
I really had a good go at the sound board & took at least 1mm of thickness away with coarse paper & then took it back to 800 grit paper.
I then re sprayed her with a minimal coat of water based lacquer.
To be honest I didn't really know what I was doing but - the result is much more sustain & an overall better sound :)

Looking out for another project now as I have enjoyed the trip, good fun this guitar restoring...
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