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My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF MJ
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10130&t=45953		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  nkwak [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF MJ
I originally started this project as part of the 2013 new builders challenge. Life kind of got in the way and I opted to focus on finishing my first instead. Now I've jumped back into it and instead of building a short scale HD-28V I've decided to build a twin for #1 based on Michael Payne's medium jumbo with some minor differences.

Here's the photobucket gallery:

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Last time I used plain Spanish cedar triangular kerfing. It was a little easier to work with than this basswood reverse kerfing but I like the look of this better. Other than that, it's been about 4 years ago since I was at this step the first time around.

Here's an old picture of the top. It's been joined and awaiting the rosette. The bridge plate is osage orange, the rosette is an LMI bold herringbone but I'm not going to use the included outer rings.

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Author:  nkwak [ Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
I've put some work on this from time to time this fall since the kids went back to school - especially this past month since the motherboard on my laptop died. The sides are lined with reversed kerfed lining. The back is thinned to .095" and trimmed to shape in anticipation of bracing. The back braces are cut to shape and radiused to 20'. The Carpathian spruce top is thinned to the razor's edge of .011" in the center and about .09" at the edges. The fingerboard is tapered and inlaid with blue paua crosses. The rosette has been changed from a StewMac herringbone to my first attempt at a radial rosette using scrap from the back.

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Author:  Chris Pile [ Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
Off to a good start!
Author:  nkwak [ Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
Chris Pile wrote:
Off to a good start!


Thanks! And it only took four years to get to this point!
Author:  nkwak [ Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
This build gathered more dust but has been getting more attention in the last month, so here are some pictoral updates:

Rosette 3.0 (yes, I had to redo it again) and bookmatched ziricote headstock veneer:

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Back plate braced and scalloped. I am too new at this to consider what I do to be called "voicing" but I hope to learn.

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DIY worktable/go bar deck (from the first build) and one of two DIY radius sanding cauls:

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laminate neck shaped to rough profile, heel and volute shapes. I will refine it once it is time to set the neck angle and mount the fret board:

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Chrome Gotoh 510 midsize 18:1 ratio tuners (right) compared to basic closed Gotoh tuners on build #1 (left):

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Author:  nkwak [ Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
...and now for the crux of this build. The top is at the razor's edge for usability. My inadequacy with a drum sander has caused me to misjudge how thing to go with this and the top - while still somewhat stiff to my untrained eye - is below what I'd consider to be comfortable for a novice builder such as myself. Using my digital caliper from inside the freshly cut soundhole, the thickness at the center is .115" but at the edges come in at .098". My only reference prior to this is my first build, which was western red cedar - and IIRC I left that one quite thin (at least as far as WRC goes) as well.
Author:  nkwak [ Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Starting to brace the top...
With some expert advice and support I am in the process of gluing in the bracing. the X brace is radiused to 30' with a 100 degree angle. It will have an A frame at the upper bout and a secondary smaller X brace (3/16" W X 3/8" H) across the lower bout to counter a soundboard that is borderline too thin and barely stiff enough. To my untrained ear the tap tone is very deep but I am unable to measure with any competency. I hope to learn how to do proper deflection testing next time around.

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Author:  Hesh [ Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
You are doing a great job Neil! [:Y:] [clap]
Author:  nkwak [ Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
The top is all braced, but the stiffness is at the razor's edge. The tap tone is deep but still has sustain. I was told offline by those more experienced than I that I would have a bass heavy guitar with lack of clarity unless I were to essentially overbrace it. Since this is build #2 I'm kind of shy to experiment too much but I was strongly advised not to use traditional bracing in the lower bout and not scallop the braces in any way. Now I am contemplating the structural integrity underneath the bridge so I haven't glued on a bridge plate yet:

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Author:  Rodger Knox [ Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
Top thickness should be fine, and the bracing above the bridge looks OK. Bridgeplate should be 0.08" to 0.10" thick, usually maple.
The finger braces look a little light, and the X in the lower bout usually doesn't work that well.
Author:  DennisK [ Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
That top thickness sounds fine to me. And double X works great as long as you carve it low enough. Yours looks good. May not want to do anything more than carving the lower ends down, but possibly could carve toward triangular profile if it sounds/feels like it's still too stiff.

As for bridge plate, I don't think you really need an extra large one, but could do it anyway. What happens with a thin soundboard is that it bends sharply right behind the bridge, which focuses a lot of stress right at the back edge of the bridge, peeling off like a strip of tape. A large bridge plate keeps the area around the bridge flat, so it has to pop off all at once instead of peeling. But that's mainly needed on cedar and redwood because they have low peeling strength. Spruce is a lot stronger, since the center is still pretty thick anyway, I don't think you'll have any trouble even with a small bridge plate.
Author:  nkwak [ Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
Thanks, Dennis. I saw that you had done something like this a couple of years ago. I found a thread where you mentioned on your consideration for using an oversized bridge plate with a hardwood patch. How did that turn out?

Yes, I will be tapering the secondary X at least an inch short of the rims. They're 3/16" high and 3/8" wide. I know that Gibson did something along these lines back in the 1970s and would prefer not to recreate their results!
Author:  nkwak [ Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
The polar vortex is here and the furnace is running frequently. Woodworking is suspended until either spring comes or Santa brings me an Aprilaire 600. In the meantime, all I can do is play with the pieces:

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The rims still don't have either the top or back glued on. I want to put some spruce side braces on first and abut them to the ladder braces on the back. I don't want to make a boat this time so the top will be glued on first so that I can voice it.

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I'm still conflicted on the bridge plate though. I don't want to go with an oversized bridge plate, nor do I want to make a maple plate of the same size. The rest of the bracing is ready for voicing but I am considering on putting a small lateral brace on the back edge of a normal sized maple bridge plate. What do you all think I should do?

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Author:  Rodger Knox [ Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
I've used a small rosewood brace along the back edge of the bridgeplate on several guitars. It's about 0.06" thick x 3/8" tall and connects to the X brace on both sides. I've always called it a PMTE (Proulx Magic Tone Enhancer). AFAIK, Mario Proulx was the first to use this type of brace.
Author:  nkwak [ Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
It's been a long time with no update and all the photo links are broken no thanks to Photobucket. To summarize, I am still working on the rims but the plates are all but done save some final profiling of the braces. The rims are radiused but need to be notched to accept the braces. I also wish to put a patch inside to facilitate a sound port in the upper bout. I also need to put in the end wedge.

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Author:  truckjohn [ Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
The best advice I can give you now...

Decide - finish it or jettison it..

If you are going to finish it.. Wait till dry weather amd get to it. Spend 15 minutes every night and it will be done in no time.

If not - burn the thing and move on... Don't put it back on the shelf to be a dead albatross hanging on your neck for the next 20 years.....

Start fresh. You will be amazed at how fast and clean it goes vs the first time when you struggle with everything..
Author:  nkwak [ Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
LOL, truckjohn! Tell me how you really feel, don't mince words! laughing6-hehe

Seriously though, I can understand how dedicated and motivated people could see my lack of progress and hemming and hawing on this could be frustrating. FWIW I admire you all and am really presenting this thread (and the previous one) in the mindset that imitation is the best part of flattery, but I have no illusion that my tinkerings come close to the quality instruments and imaginative solutions that many of you have shared with the likes of me! [clap]

As for me, I consider myself to be just what I alluded to (a tinkerer) and have learned some valuable skills in these endeavors that I'm trying to apply in other areas of my life. Patience has been the first thing, though being a chronic procrastinator it kind of comes naturally - which tests the patience of others around me! :D

Regardless, I will be continuing on with this one and when not working on it will be storing to components in the case. I know it's not ideal but in my situation it's necessary. My workspace has been my dining room table and storage is wherever the wife and kids won't bump it around. In fact, "out of sight and out of mind" has been my mindset.

Next step I said is to finish getting the rims ready to accept the plates. That also includes the end graft. For that I have plans to go out of my comfort zone and make one with curved sides, not straight. I know that I'll have to measure carefully but I've found with patience I'm able to pull it off for the most part. I have some curly maple to tie into the body binding (yeah I know, they are going to be hard for me to bend without breaking a few in the process) and am looking forward to trying my hand at mitering the BWB purfling.
Author:  nkwak [ Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
Pics of latest progress. The rims are notched for the plates and everything fits in the case now.

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The A Frame was a little tricky but I used charcoal to scribe where to cut. I used hand tools for the cutting:

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The cut didn't always come out clean:

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Everything is pretty much lined up but I'm going to have to refine the end graft once the box is closed.

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Author:  nkwak [ Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
A lot of stuff has happened since my last update but not much here, other than I recently closed the box.

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Author:  nkwak [ Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
I'm filling in the blanks here but I put the frets on a few months ago and put a spit coat of shellac. I'm waiting until spring to French polish it like I did with my first so so so many years ago now.

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Author:  nkwak [ Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
I French polished the body this past January. All that's really left to do is glue on the bridge and set it up.

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I'm just about done with the neck. The angle is set but I have to shim the tenon. All that's otherwise left to do is the nut and polish the headstock and neck. I'd otherwise spent the past few months binding the headstock but it didn't come out well the first time so I had to do it over.
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
Good going Neil you are staying with it and it's look great.
Author:  nkwak [ Sun Nov 12, 2023 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My dusty second build: Carpathian/E. Indian Rosewood OLF
Hesh wrote:
Good going Neil you are staying with it and it's look great.


Thank you!

I finished it and strung it up back at the end of June. Intonation is about 95% mostly because the neck seems to have some flex; the bolts are tight but the tension is still raising the action, especially on the low E string. I don’t think there’s anything structurally wrong with the guitar (the neck block is staying put and the neck doesn’t have a bow) or the placement of the bridge so I’m going to try a steel washer to supplement the nomex washers I’ve been using to absorb any shock and use lighter gauge strings as well as tuning it down a half step.

This guitar otherwise sounds good to my ear, but clearly I need to build more guitars and learn from my mistakes. I’ve already commenced a third build that is more “traditional” in design. I’d like to build another guitar of this design but I think I’d do the neck design differently.
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