Official Luthiers Forum!

Good going JJ! What a bunch of exceptional work. Great link to your progress. You sure do get friendly with your wood eh.

Maybe we can just keep this thread alive and call it Mandolin Corner.

That's great neck info Arnt. I think the little blocks are just called corner fillers. I wish your photos were out there when I was doing a neck. I found it really hard to envision how it would all come together. JJ has a good Idea of using some practice blanks.

Really great work all! I'm really looking forward to doing an "F"

Cheers,
Danny

Bob awesome instrument. I love this.

Wonderful instruments all!
jj, while bluegrass has been pretty acoustic traditional in the past (and we owe them thanks for that!), I'm afraid that electrics and drums are creeping in. But Mike's point was a question about why A's are almost reviled by grassers. The answer is probably that if "Bill" (and we ain't talkin' Broonzy here! ) didn't play it, it ain't no good.
I would guess the same is true about guitars. Show up with a Larson and fingerpicks at a bluegrass convention and there will be lots of looking down the nose. If it ain't a dreadnaught, it ain't bluegrass.
It's been difficult to say the least to introduce my original creations to the mandolin community. Few are built by me and they are better liked overseas and by jazz or classical players even though the make perfectly acceptable bluegrass mandolins from a tonal point of view.
A couple of years ago I tried to introduce a few mods to the F5, and they were not well received. The mods included moving the ff holes forward, using tapered ribs (deeper at the endpin) and a Larson "tone tube". It was an astounding mandolin tonally, but a different sound than a Loar.



Fortunately a hot bluegrass picker bought it and loves it.
I have some sound clips of 5 different mandolins on my website here:

http://www.brentrup.com/sounds.php

Most of the differences in tonality are in the tonewoods used and not the shape although I can detect a very slight difference between A's and F's built with the same tonewoods.

So, while it is more fun to build original instruments, I'm afraid that if you want to sell instruments (and it's getting more difficult all the time), F5's are the only sure way to go. A's will sell, but everybody wants Bill's Loar for nothing.
Building Loar copies is it's own brand of frustration. Use ebony instead of black dyed holly on the peghead overlay, or overlap the binding the wrong way or even worse, mitre it and you have sinned.
Mario is right, the scroll police are out there. A few years ago MC ran a "Post a photo of your scroll", and folks were falling all over themselves trying to pick the best one. Fact is that it's hard to find two Gibson scrolls alike.
It's becoming difficult to sell mandolins for the time you put into them. Fortunately, I will be retireing this month from full time building and will be able to build what I want.
I foresee one of these in my future:


I hope this thread continues or turns into a forum. I would be happy to add to it, answer questions, or photo some toots.

They all sound great to me, Hans! I would have to choose on the basis of design preference alone and never be wrong.

How would you characterize the different tonewoods and the sounds that they produce?

My motivation in wanting to build mandos is purely out of love for the craft for now, so the idea of having some creative freedom after making 1 or 2 traditional instruments first is my tentative plan. I'm doing the first as a filler project so it's likely to languish in it's project box until I have 2 current guitars completed. We'll have to review the rules and regulations for Loar F5's as a separate post one of these days...just for grins!

On the sub-forum status...we instituted an Electric section some time ago and it has flourished. I would expect a Mando forum to generate even more interest. I'm confident that Lance will agree soon enough. In the meantime...let's get the word out and invite our Mando Buddies.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

JJ, the tonewood choices on the sound clips are:
Both Loar F5C and the A5C copies are W. Virginia red spruce and red maple as Lloyd preferred. The Eclipse is Italian spruce/sugar maple and the Stealth is German/sugar maple. If you listen to the clips on good headphones or speakers you can tell that the red spruce/red maple is pretty fundamental sounding with sort of a "thud" on the bottom end and what they all refer to as "bell like" trebles on the high end (especially the distressed F5C as it takes a while to pound the tone out of Loar copies). They seem to have a quick rise and fast decay to them.
Italian spruce has a little more complexity to it with really clear, steely trebles. The bass is a bit richer. German is very complex and rich sounding. Some folks say that the trebles are quieter, but that's just their mistaken perception of of complexity. Engelmann is a mushy German spruce with less punch unless it is very stiff. Real German is my favorite as it has a pop that no other spruce has.
As to the maples, sugar maple gives the greatest punch, adds a sharpness to the top wood, someone told me, combined with red spruce, it sounded like a drawer full of silverware tossed down a flight of stairs. I don't like it with red spruce as it can be downright irritating to listen to.
Red maple is perfect for Loar copies as it adds just a bit of richness to the tone, and both Loar and Charlie Derrington knew it.
Euro maple is a bit warmer yet, too warm for red spruce in my opinion, but is great for Italian and German.
Bigleaf maple makes a very dark sounding instrument, especially when combined with German spruce. It's about as rich and complex as you can get.
Now, of course, these are generalities. You can get a very hard plank of red maple and it will lean more toward sugar, or very soft red and it will sound like silver maple or Euro.
Many mandolins these days are built to the edge of collapse as I suspect a lot of guitars are too. I call this the "instant gratification" complex as that is what most folks want. They want it to sound the best right away. Loar copies do not sound that good right off and take several years to break in. It's because they are built thicker than the IG instruments. I've always approached mandolins from the thick side rather than too thin, and the reward is a fat tone.

Coincidentally, I was listening to the sound clips again last night through some good earbuds and could definitely distinguish differences far better than my laptop speakers. This was an absolute delight to listen to since the excellent player pretty much played the same pieces for each instrument...that made the ability to compare and contrast far easier. Bottom line for me was that I liked them all but my favorite for now is the Eclipse. I will continue to study the sounds and hope to hone my perception.

On the tonewood differences...here we enter personal favorites and subjective perception. I've used many different spruces on guitars so far and I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that the most toneful tops are more related to density and stiffness rather than species. I do deflection testing and calculate density and try to correlate these data to a subjectively graded tap tone first and ultimately guitar sound...but it's just a biased opinion in the end. Here's one question related to Mando top selection: Since they are much thicker 5/8" vs. 3/16" for guitars, how do you perceive stiffness? In general, how do determine an exceptional from an average top in the raw? Lots of questions, I know...but TIA for your patience and willingness to share your knowledge and experience.

Instant gratification vs. opening up...There's a lot of buzz lately about using that little string vibrator on a newly constructed instrument. Some folks swear by its ability to accelerate the opening up process on new guitars. Have any mando builders reported credible results on this. For me, I remain skeptical until I actually do my own testing. My first mando might just be the first test using an aquarium pump in place of the rather expensive commercial product.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Certainly, JJ! There has been a lot of talk about the "Tonerite" devices on the discussion boards. Michael Lewis among others is a fan of the system, others are more sceptical. I've done the aquarium pump thing on a couple of new guitars, and... I believe it does something, not sure if it is the same as "breaking them in", though. Try for yourself, there's no harm as far as I can see, anyways.

Check out this discussion on Mandolin Cafe
[url]http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47418&highlight=tone+rite
[/url]

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Haans thanks for your photos and especially your last post. Now that you are retiring, when will your book be released? Are you taking prepaid orders for a signed first editions yet?

I'd love to give a try to one of your mandos. Are there any in central Illinois?

_________________
Chris Oliver
Infinity Luthiers
...in the shop.

live every minute...

Certainly, JJ! There has been a lot of talk about the "Tonerite" devices on the discussion boards. Michael Lewis among others is a fan of the system, others are more sceptical. I've done the aquarium pump thing on a couple of new guitars, and... I believe it does something, not sure if it is the same as "breaking them in", though. Try for yourself, there's no harm as far as I can see, anyways.

Check out this discussion on Mandolin Cafe
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47418&highlight=tone+rite

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Thanks, Arnt...over a year of posts by some really smart builders. I'll read the thread tonight when I have more time.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Three cheers to you JJ and everyone else who kept the tread going. You did it.

Cheers,
Danny

As of today I am retired! Big deal... now where's that bridge clamp?
Won't be any books Danny, I'm takin' it with me...but I'll answer any questions not proprietary.
JJ, to take your points one by one...
On the tonewood perception, I've fought with a certain supplier about spruce differences and tone to the point of his questioning my calling Italian Italian and German German. I finally settled with him to calling them stashes X,Y, and Z. Bottom line is that each of those stashes makes a DIFFERENT sounding mandolin as you can hear on the clips. No matter what the individual density of one board vs another in each stash, red spruce sounds different from Italian and Italian sounds different from German. I have made upwards of 240 mandolins with these woods, and that is the case. I might say from my experience with flat top guitars that this may not be as evident as with archtops, and maybe considering the size of a mandolin, even more focused on the type of wood used. Even when paired with different maples for backs I can discern the difference. I won't go as far as to say that out of 10 mandolins I can pick the German spruce, but given a red spruce, a German, and an Italian topped mandolin, all carved to the proper dimensions, and with the same backs, I would give myself a pretty fair chance of picking them correctly.
To the density, basically I don't consider any of the top woods that I have as inferior to another of the same pile. I bought the best grades I could find, and whether they are dense or not, it's all done in the carving. Carve, carve, flex, flex. The thumbnail test works, and just hefting a chunk and looking at the grain works too
As to the IG vs opening up, they are two different animals. An IG mandolin will usually be more resonant than a Loar type as it is just carved thinner. It will never sound like a Loar no matter how much it opens up.
I have not used any 'lectrical vibratory devices on my instruments, but I do have a set of headphones that swivel 90 degrees and I have stuck them in the case (case not latched of course) over the ff holes and turned classical music on up to volume 11 for weeks and I can say that it makes a bit of difference, but nothing beats actually playing the instrument. I have come back from week long trade shows where the mandolins have been beat up pretty good by some hot pickers, and they have sounded spectacular, only to go to sleep again from lack of playing.
Arnt is right, there is a wealth of info on MC, but as with any site, there's a lot of BS and beginner stuff. The builder section is the place to go.
I will try to keep this thread from falling off the forum, and will post some construction photos too. Let's all try...
Ok, back to retirement...got to heat up the HHG.

Could this thread be moved to the NEW mandolin forum we have ?

would be nice to start out with a thread like this .

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

Done...we now have a real home!

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Congrats! That's the way I hope to feel the day I retire.

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Thanks Arnt!
Did 7 hours yesterday...some retirement.
So, here's what retirement is really about. I get to work on the upstairs window trim all weekend.

Retirement : Def: when a man goes from working a secular job to working twice as hard for the establishment . IE: Half The Money Twice The Wife !!

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

I'm trying to figure out a way to retire and keep my office. Maybe, investment management in the mornings, and building in the afternoons and evenings, sleep at night, hmmm! So much for family life!

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I have seen several of these , how does the extension and additional sound hole affect the overall sound ? Interesting concept . When did this type unit first make an apperance ?

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

Haans your v4 and v6 are amazing....mike

Thanks Mike! Here's a photo of the last version I made combining features of both instruments . I called it V8.



Wud, Larsons made Dyer Bros. instruments starting around 1902. Haven't heard one up close, but have the itch to build one.

Hans...this is an amazing instrument...I love it despite the fact that it's not something that Bill would have approved!

Please explain the split saddle materials and how you approach that part of the instrument. TIA

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

JJ, the split saddle is to gain a little on the treble (not that it's needed on a mandolin, but some folks want it). I just bandsaw off 1/8" of the saddle to the center and cyano on some bone. Carefully drill a hole with a sharp bit on the drill press and file to shape.
Bill who?
Seriously, I brought one of my V6's to IBMA 2 years ago and folks would look at it like this... When I stuck it in their hands and said play it they were more like... It was pretty funny...

Put a pickup on that rascal and you'll be a hero to the rock crowd! Oh...how sacrilegious indeed! That instrument is just too elegant to be considered as unworthy for BG.

On the saddle issue, I was planning on making several alternatives including bone, brass, ebony and BRW to compare differences. Your split saddle adds another element to consider.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Don't know about R&R, but it does good on Ragtime...

http://www.youtube.com/user/tenorbanjog ... 2lS6WS-5xA

Gibson used aluminum saddles at one point in the '20's and Frank Wakefield made a bakelite bridge for his Loar.