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When is the best time to level the frets while building the guitar. Before staining and finishing or after?


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After you get it strung up. I don't assume it will need leveling.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Fret the guitar after it's been finished and level the frets then.

This also means not fretting the board before it's attached to the instrument.

Why? Because to create a decent fret plane with relief where you want it, less on the treble side, more on the bass side and impart fall-away (0.010" - 0.015" for an acoustic instrument such as an O - D) the board has to be on the instrument before the frets.

Learn to do all the set-up work and fretting on a completely finished guitar and you will also have learned to do many repair operations.

Ok I understand, the guitar im putting together is a les paul style and I jumped the gun and already set the neck into the body. So i was just wondering if I should level the frets now before i stain and put the lacquer finish on it or before. I assumed before painting it but your point about doing the fretwork before attaching it makes sense as it gives for a much flatter base. Thank you guys


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Hi Mayco - I would level and crown after the finishing has been done AND after the instrument has been in a stable RH environment for at least a couple of weeks.

Ideally the neck and fret board would be "set" and then after the instrument has been in a stable RH environment for a couple of weeks that's when you level the fret board which includes:

1) Imparting relief, more on the bass side and less on the treble side. Only a very few makers of the best stuff out here will do this but it's the right thing to do and we do it to every refret we do. This lets it be set-up for very low action with a nearly straight treble side and a little relief where it's needed the most on the bass side.

2) Create some "fall-away" after the 12th fret which is also not only necessary for low action it's a counter to what happens on production instruments where the end of the fret board develops a ski-ramp of sorts upward. This ski ramp is the single largest and most common reason why a Fender style bolt on neck can't have even lower action so we eliminate it in the build process as a hedge. It happens to Les Pauls too, commonly.

So that's what I wanted to share with you and all of those looking over our shoulders for this thread/conversation there is a lot of value in fretting the board AFTER it's installed on the neck and AFTER the neck is installed on the instrument and if you really want to be precise with all of this done in a stable RH (42 - 48% unless you live somewhere very dry or wet).

Since we spend most of our effort "shaping" the fret board when the frets are in, glued in place the shaping/leveling process of the frets is very minimal and fast since we did it on the board. This also leaves more of that fret life for the player and in the case of stainless where they are hard to level it makes our life much easier with minimal shaping/leveling/recrowning.

Where you are now is OK and no problem we can make that work. You could level before or after finishing but I want to get you comfortable working on a fully finished instrument that has a stable neck RH wise, that's the last detail that a quality maker and/or repair Luthier will also add as our value to the process.

Thank You Hesh! I really appreciate your advice. Keeping it at a level RH for weeks after completion then adjusting the frets makes alot of sense. I’m in NY and although I have a music room/studio that i keep humidified I really struggle with keeping it at a constant RH level. But its still better then in my shop which is definitely colder. I haven’t touched the frets yet so I will finish the guitar and then level.

When you say fall away do you mean sanding the higher frets (towards the body) slightly lower? I Just want to make sure i understand it correctly.


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Hi Hesh, two questions:

When you say treble/bass relief, I’m not clear what you mean. I assume you mean if you took a cross section of a non-relieved fret board the surface would describe a perfect, let’s say 16”, arc. Are you creating a slight inflection under the 1st and 6th strings? A subtle school bus effect?

I know you’ve said it before, but what tool do you use for fretting over the heel and body of an acoustic? Purely academic for me now, but it was the part that always intimidated me from fretting a guitar with the neck on.


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You are very welcome Mayco and I am happy to help. Feel free to PM me here too if I can help I am happy to do so.

Fall away: Imagine that a guitar neck has two different fret planes. One that spans from the 1st through the 12th. And a second plane that starts out at the 12th but has a gradual reduction in fret height until the last fret over the body. Typically on an acoustic that is flat picked you want the last fret to be below the fret plane of the 1st through the 12th by around 0.010" - 0.015". Or, in other words the frets "fall away" after they 12th.

Why? Because this is very close to where we dig in with a pick or even our fingers and the strings lash out the furthest in this region.

For a hard hitting bluegrass player it's very important to get the frets out of the way of the strings in this region so it doesn't rattle.

For the shredder who loves their heavy metal vomit music (no offense intended I like heavy metal vomit music too ) because their action is so very low they benefit from some fall away too although less is fine here, say 0.005" - 0.010".

Did you know that on a Fender style bolt on neck the single most common reason why the action can't be lower is the absence of fall-away and in fact a bit of a ski ramp. Food for thought.

How do we achieve fall away?

When we level frets we use a very true sanding beam we make our own out of 1 X 2 aluminum tube stock, inexpensive and then we flatten it on our certified surface plate with self stick sand paper on the plate and frequently moving the beam around, reversing it etc. as a machinist will do to spread any minor errors around and hopefully cancel some of them out.

So we make and use a beam that spans the 1st through the 12th. Remember the two different fret planes Mayco? This beam does the first fret plane.

Then we have a shorter beam that spans from the 12th through the last fret.

To induce fall away once we have the 1st through the 12th level (or shaped, we impart relief but I don't want to confuse you) we get out the short beam and place a piece of masking tape over one end that props it up. Depending on the tape I use two pieces for 0.010 - 0.015 fall away for an acoustic and one piece for less fall away on an electric.

Our fretting methods are as good as they get and we can do fret work that exceeds the accuracy of a PLEK with our methods. We were offered a free PLEK and turned it down we like what we do better and we also think that there are some issues with a PLEK such as the proprietary nature of the machine and software with recurring high maintenance and support costs for a small shop.

Anyway let me know if this makes sense.

In summary with the beams we level, induce fall away, and then return to the first plane 1 - 12 and impart less relief on the treble side and more on the bass side. We do all of this to the fret board before even putting the frets in.

When the frets are in only very minimal leveling and relief imparting is necessary because we already shaped the board. Fall away is present we also did that to the board in advance.

Lastly since our beams are only 1" wide and we trace the string paths low and behold we just also created a beautiful compound radius which is very desirable for uber low action and BIG bends.

All these "efficiencies" in our methods really come in handy when are asked to use stainless wire so old Hesh here does not have to bust his butt milling down stainless frets which are very hard and difficult to work.

Let me know if you have any questions?

Thanks

Hey Randy I hope you are doing great.

Read my reply to our friend Mayco and I describe the two beams we make and use, you can buy these too but if I bought any I would check them on a surface plate.

So when I sight down a neck I lift it up at the head stock end and then sight down the treble edge of the frets. I want to see a very small, gentle curve away from the string of about 0.02" - 0.03". It not always easy to see but this relief is a very minor falling away... from the frets of the strings.

You can also use both hands fretting and holding say at the 12th and the first and then pulsing the string with your thumb at the 10th, 9th, and so on and so forth. If you can hear the different notes you have relief. If a note repeats on two frets there is no relief in that area.

So we looked down the treble side what about the bass side?

I sight that next. Ideally we want more relief on the bass side and less on the treble side because the bass strings are more massive and need more clearance over the frets. Not going to cite a number we just want more on the bass side than the treble side.

A well built guitar will have less relief on the treble side and more on the base side. Do manufacturers do this? No, the vast majority of them don't even know what these things are... or why we do them.

Others at the top of the profession such as Collings, Suhr, Sawdowsky all will do as I am describing and we do this too with all of our fret work. I learned to build in relief back when I was still building so it's served me very well.

Around 50% of the guitars you can purchase will have more relief on the treble side, not good.....

Let me know if this answers your question? No school bus roof but a gentle curve away from the strings between the 12th and 1st with more so on the bass side and less so on the treble side.

All these things add up to superb fret work that if an action number is possible in terms of the physics we can get the guitar to do it too. Bottom line all these things make the instrument play easier and more in tune.

This is when a guitar stops being a woodworking project and becomes what it really is most of all.... a tool for musicians where playability is king and just another pretty face is appreciated but not as important as how it plays.

Thank you both [PERSON WITH FOLDED HANDS] you guys are a godsend to a newbie like me


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