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add carbon-fiber inserts to fully-made neck?
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=54311		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Ironword [ Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:54 am ]
Post subject:  add carbon-fiber inserts to fully-made neck?
This is an add-on question to my previous thread viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=54259. Y'all will probably give me a major smackdown for idiocy, but it's an honest question. I'm interested in the possibility of using carbon-fiber inserts in a neck to seriously cut down on movement, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X1dawGnoqc. Doing this apparently still allows a bit of truss-rod wiggle room but, like a multi-laminate neck, makes the neck a good deal more stable than it would otherwise be.

Assuming all that is correct--and it'd be great if Hesh could give his authoritative yea or nay on it--my further question is this: if I got a Warmoth neck, specifying that they should leave it unfinished, could I then add in carbon-fiber inserts myself, from the back? obviously the routing would have to be utterly precise, probably need to build a special jig to do it; and after gluing in the inserts, then I'd then have to add a couple of wood skunk-stripes in behind them and sand those down to the neck curvature, all of which would be tricky and very slow work to ensure that I didn't ruin the neck in the process. So I've got serious doubts--but I've also got serious doubts about making my own neck in the first place.

So what's the verdict--smackdown or (very) cautious exploration?
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: add carbon-fiber inserts to fully-made neck?
Completely unnecessary and we have had small Luthier built instruments that were in because the owner could not get the truss rod to function because of the use, improperly of CF augmentation.

Or, in other words what problem is it that you are trying to solve that tens of millions of guitars that came before yours did not have?

How is that for the smack down which, by the way is not my style or intent here. I am simply replying to your question with the natural question that results, why? what problem is it that you are trying to solve?

One more thing and this is not directed at you. Folks are surprised to hear that some well respected repair shops will not work on small Luthier built guitars unless the Luthier is well known and their wares are predictably constructed. Why? Because much of it is crap..... and we have to be the one to tell the steward that they spent $5K on a piece of crap that needs major rebuilding to get the most basic things right such as a neck angle.... It's depressing and disheartening and not something that we want to get any of it on us.

So with this said I try as I will to convince people here that a guitar may be to you a woodworking project but to me it's a tool for a musician and if you want to make decent guitars they have to address and satisfy my definition to be anything other than what Rick Turner described as a "guitar like object."

We see elaborate rosettes and 123 different types of exotic wood used but the neck angle is fatally incorrect.... Or we see great inlay on the fingerboard but the nut is non-functional, improperly spaced and the nut channel lacks uniformity to the degree that it has to be squared up with major material removal.

Or in other words what I am saying here in less than an eloquent manner is what ever happened to having the respect and reverence for the builders who came before us enough so that your goal in producing an instrument is to produce an excellent example of a conventionally designed and engineered guitar? Or, in other words how many Martins have been built with no CF augmentation in the neck???? How many g*bsons, Taylors, Yamahas to get into some millions of instruments and nary a CF rod in any of them.

Lastly you mentioned a Warmouth neck which implies what you did not mention that this is for an electric? So I might presume it's likely 10's or so which are on the light side of string tension and if you our your intended client is shredder they may be drop running as low as C which means very little string tension on the neck at all. And you need to augment this with CF.... Don't think so.

OK that's it for me, thanks for your question, hope I did you proud :). I have to go to the dentist and then I have a PRS waiting for me to be set-up to play as well as possible in A sharp..... Oh the joy of shredders..... :). buzz, buzz, rattle, rattle, tink :)
Author:  Ironword [ Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: add carbon-fiber inserts to fully-made neck?
Great smackdown!

Yup, electric; I assumed that was clear from the previous thread.

What am I trying to do? Get a neck that I can let sit awhile (as per previous thread) without the problems you noted in that thread. And especially a neck that won't twist. I've seen it happen and truss rods can't fix it. Truss rods take care of bow, but they can't deal with twist.

So if carbon fiber could give me a neck that won't move as much as a normal neck--just enough so that the truss rod will work, but simultaneously preventing the kinds of problems you outlined in the previous thread--that would be great.

BTW, just to set the record straight on what my longer-term goals are here: I've done my bit of woodworking in the past--I've made some pretty decent furniture--but I'm a musician and the reason I want to dip my toe into building guitars is because I'm sick and tired of taking my guitars to techs who take my money but fail to give me the sweet setups I want. At this point I've decided to stop blaming them and start doing it myself; that way I'll know what's going on with my instruments and I'll either 1) finally get the great action I've always wanted, or 2) realize that a certain guitar just can't be made to play any better, so it's not the poor tech's fault and I don't have to keep wondering whether I'm getting ripped off. I don't plan on getting deep into guitar building, but in order to gain the level of knowledge I want, I do want to run through the process a few times, and that means building a few. But of course as long as I'm at it, I figure I might as well build my dream guitar, or two--which will be a working musician's guitar. That means doing it right, so believe me, I'm all in when you put correct neck angle and nut construction above fancy woods. Duh.

But to get back to the question at hand: I'm not playing in a band right now, but as a previously gigging musician who plans on resuming that activity in the future, I want to play my guitars, not spend precious practice time doing setups. So beyond the immediate question of buying a neck and letting it sit awhile in anticipation of a future build (the previous thread), there's the longer-term issue of seasonal adjustments. If CF can reduce neck movement, it would logically reduce the number of necessary setups per year, or maybe at least reduce the amount of adjustment necessary. So that would be the goal: as much as possible, set and forget. That would be awesome.

Unless, of course, CF just doesn't work as advertised. The Crimson-guitars guy in the youtube clip (and others I saw as well) say it does. On the opposing side, I interpret your assertions, "completely unnecessary", "very little string tension on the neck...you [don't] need to augment this with CF" to mean that you're saying that those folks are flat wrong, at least for electric necks. Thus you are implying that even if CF might work to keep a neck from twisting, it will in fact work too well, and not in a good way. It will not keep the neck from needing fewer setups, rather the converse: the neck will still need the same seasonal readjustments, but doing these setups will be impeded or outright prevented by the CF--which will soon make the guitar unplayable. Therefore there exists no careful and correct way to use CF that will make necks more stable but won't cause the inoperable-trussrod problem you're warning about here. I should thus go forward distrusting all use of CF as an unmitigated disaster in electric necks using light strings. Correct?
Author:  Smylight [ Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: add carbon-fiber inserts to fully-made neck?
Twisting necks are a rare problem and usually point in the direction of a "bad" or insufficiently seasoned piece of wood. And I concur with Hesh : it might very well add too much stiffness, preventing workable adjustments of the truss rod with lighter strings on an electric. I see way more back-bowed necks that can't be pulled enough with regular string tension than twisted necks. As Hesh said, the problem often lies with down-tuned guitars set with inappropriate string gauges by owners unaware of the concept of string tension.

So for me it’s a solution to a problem that very rarely shows up and I certainly wouldn’t order a Warmoth (or any other well-made) neck with the intent of inserting CF rods. If such a neck, well-finished and properly kept at a correct level of humidity, was to twist, the manufacturer would exchange it under warranty.

Wood will move seasonally because of RH fluctuations and there’s precious little that can be done about it. Regular setups are a fact of life with guitars made of wood, so I respectfully suggest the OP learns to do his own setups first… and not worry about twisting necks. Routine truss rod adjustment take no time at all when doing string changes.


Pierre
Guitares Torvisse
Author:  Chris Pile [ Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: add carbon-fiber inserts to fully-made neck?
Having done a bit of neck reinforcement with CF bars back in the 80's I can tell you it's easy to go overboard. If the neck is already complete (and in this case, under warranty) just play the dang thing and stop trying to be high tech cool.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Thu Aug 12, 2021 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: add carbon-fiber inserts to fully-made neck?
Yes, carbon fiber can be overdone resulting in a too stiff neck. Conversely, carbon fiber can be done just right and it will add some stiffness and stability to a neck without overworking the truss rod. I have settled on adding two carbon bars that are 1/4" high and 3/32" wide. Those are tiny compared to the bars that are normally used, but they do help. But I agree with the others here that adding bars to a pre-built neck is fixing a problem that does not exist.
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: add carbon-fiber inserts to fully-made neck?
Ironword wrote:
Great smackdown!

Yup, electric; I assumed that was clear from the previous thread.

What am I trying to do? Get a neck that I can let sit awhile (as per previous thread) without the problems you noted in that thread. And especially a neck that won't twist. I've seen it happen and truss rods can't fix it. Truss rods take care of bow, but they can't deal with twist.

So if carbon fiber could give me a neck that won't move as much as a normal neck--just enough so that the truss rod will work, but simultaneously preventing the kinds of problems you outlined in the previous thread--that would be great.

BTW, just to set the record straight on what my longer-term goals are here: I've done my bit of woodworking in the past--I've made some pretty decent furniture--but I'm a musician and the reason I want to dip my toe into building guitars is because I'm sick and tired of taking my guitars to techs who take my money but fail to give me the sweet setups I want. At this point I've decided to stop blaming them and start doing it myself; that way I'll know what's going on with my instruments and I'll either 1) finally get the great action I've always wanted, or 2) realize that a certain guitar just can't be made to play any better, so it's not the poor tech's fault and I don't have to keep wondering whether I'm getting ripped off. I don't plan on getting deep into guitar building, but in order to gain the level of knowledge I want, I do want to run through the process a few times, and that means building a few. But of course as long as I'm at it, I figure I might as well build my dream guitar, or two--which will be a working musician's guitar. That means doing it right, so believe me, I'm all in when you put correct neck angle and nut construction above fancy woods. Duh.

But to get back to the question at hand: I'm not playing in a band right now, but as a previously gigging musician who plans on resuming that activity in the future, I want to play my guitars, not spend precious practice time doing setups. So beyond the immediate question of buying a neck and letting it sit awhile in anticipation of a future build (the previous thread), there's the longer-term issue of seasonal adjustments. If CF can reduce neck movement, it would logically reduce the number of necessary setups per year, or maybe at least reduce the amount of adjustment necessary. So that would be the goal: as much as possible, set and forget. That would be awesome.

Unless, of course, CF just doesn't work as advertised. The Crimson-guitars guy in the youtube clip (and others I saw as well) say it does. On the opposing side, I interpret your assertions, "completely unnecessary", "very little string tension on the neck...you [don't] need to augment this with CF" to mean that you're saying that those folks are flat wrong, at least for electric necks. Thus you are implying that even if CF might work to keep a neck from twisting, it will in fact work too well, and not in a good way. It will not keep the neck from needing fewer setups, rather the converse: the neck will still need the same seasonal readjustments, but doing these setups will be impeded or outright prevented by the CF--which will soon make the guitar unplayable. Therefore there exists no careful and correct way to use CF that will make necks more stable but won't cause the inoperable-trussrod problem you're warning about here. I should thus go forward distrusting all use of CF as an unmitigated disaster in electric necks using light strings. Correct?


Where are you located? You don't have to say here I respect that you may not want to give too much information. If you are in striking range of me I would be happy to set-up one of your guitars for free to show you that bad techs and luthiers in your past need not take you down the path of over building a guitar. :) Feel free to contact me privately I want to help you man.
Author:  Ironword [ Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: add carbon-fiber inserts to fully-made neck?
Thanks to everyone for all the feedback. I know I probably sound like an idiot, but there are a lot of different opinions floating around out there in Internet-land, so when you're just starting to learn about something, it's really helpful to have a place like this where you can get a set of experienced, straight-shooting advice. I figure that looking dumb and learning something is smarter than remaining ignorant and making expensive mistakes--so thanks a ton for y'all's patience.

Hesh, unfortunately I'm pretty much all the way across the country in Arizona. However, I really appreciate the offer--it'd almost be worth it to take a plane to Michigan! Your advice alone is great, though. I promise I won't overbuild!
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