Official Luthiers Forum!

I got a cheap unfinished chinese neck which I am using for my first guitar build. The fretboard on it however is not properly sanded flat. When i put a notched straight edge on the fretboard I am able to but a 0.20 - 0.30 feeler gauge under the last 5-7 frets. Its even visible to the eye that the fretboard is thinner at the last frets. So this needs to be fixed.

My plan is to get a long 450mm aluminium radius gauge, if this works like I think it should i should be able to apply preassure in the middle and sand down the fretboard until it is even all over. I assume as long as i keep the preassure in the middle this should be fine.

However, what do I do about the truss rod? how do i know that the neck is straight when the fretboard itself is uneven, should i just adjust the truss rod so that it is even on the first 12 or so frets (which seems to be level)?

I guess the good news about this, as long as i get it done properly is that I can put in some proper Evo Gold frets. I bet the metal on these cheap chinese necks is soft and will scratch and wear down easily.

Picture:
https://ibb.co/jJYmn8


https://ibb.co/jt5z78

By the way, why am I walnut?

First is it a two way or standard truss rod? for a standard make sure it is completely slack, remove the nut if you must to be sure. If it is a two way put it in neutral. There will be a bit of play in the nut when the tension swaps from one side of the rod to the other, that is neutral.My initial thought is that the rod currently has tension on it and the neck will flatten when that is adjusted......

Support the neck well at both ends and use a sanding beam that is longer than the neck and it should level right out if needed.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

PS we also typically use our real names in this community.
We all started out as walnuts, the more you contribute the better tonewood you become.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

I am certain its a standard truss rod since this is a "standard" cheap chinese neck, but i guess i will find out when i loosen it. Regarding removing the nut, if i just keep on "slacking" the neck - will the nut eventually come off? it wont be any problem to reattatch it?


I do not know if the neck has tension or not ... since I cant tell if the fretboard is straight, since the fretboard itself is uneven ... As I understand, your method of doing this assumes that the neck will be completely straight with the truss rod slack? But what if it is not straight with the truss rod slackened?

A bit of clarification for what Brian said. There are two general types of truss rods - the older style single acting "compression" rod (so named because it puts the neck in compression as it is tightened). I can have the adjuster at either the head or heel end, the nut can be any one of these

https://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and_S ... russ_Rods/

When you unscrew it it just gets easier to turn, finally it will come all the way off the threaded rod. You do not have to take it that far but if you do its easy to put back on.

The other type of truss rod has two parts - one is threaded and the ends move towards or away from each other, the other part bends to push the neck into a forward or reverse bow. They generally look like this

https://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and_S ... s_Rod.html

Most of the time they will have an allen socket for the adjuster, however other varieties also exist. The big different (aside from how they work) is how they react to your turning the adjuster. As you loosen (CW) a two way rod it gets easier to turn until it reaches its middle position (where it is not applying any force to the neck), then it will start getting harder to turn as you continue to loosen it. The adjuster does not come off, it is welded on.

So, what Brian is saying is to loosen the rod until you are sure its not applying any force to the neck - if it is a compression rod you will feel that the nut is just turning on the threads, if its a two way rod it will get easy, then more difficult to turn. Go back to that easy position. Your neck not being affected by the truss rod, you can accurately measure whether it is bent or not.

Two more comments - every Chinese neck I've ever seen has had dismal frets - they always have required leveling, crowing and cleaning up the ends. Stop and think about it, you can buy a fretted Chinese neck for less that I can buy the materials in the US. The other comment, however, is since this is your first guitar are you really sure that you want to take on a refret right out of the gate? Buy the time you buy all the wire and tools you could get a nice neck from a domestic supplier like Warmoth with Evo wire and you will have minimum work,

Looks like a compression truss rod, if I can tell anything by looking at it

https://imgur.com/a/RSMngxS

I am actually looking forward to refretting it, leveling and recrowning. I want to learn how to do it so I dont have pay the only luthier in town 250$ for a fret level and crowning (and all my guitars is in need of some fretwork). I already got the tools, some of the tools i got dirt cheap from china. Other tools like straight edge and radius beam I had to pay a bit for (since I need it to be accurate) but it will be well worth it. Its not much really, you dont need expensive tools to do this and it isnt rocket science. Ill just use a dead blow hammer or the radius beam with a c-clamp or drill press to insert the frets, and if there is a gap im the fret tang and fretboard socket ill fill it with hide glue using a syringe.

By the way, on anonther forum some users says the clearance on the last frets might be a positive thing, that some luthiers do it this way on purpose to archieve a lower action all over. I guess ill just have to string it and try before i do anything.

The fretwork is actually pretty nice, the ends are very nicely done, the only problem is that some frets dont seem to sit properly in the fret socet, i can get my nail in between. I dont know if I can fix this with a fret hammer ... I dont know if the frets are glued or not either. I might be able to properly seat them by heating the frets and clamping them down, or just by using a dead blow hammer.

Alternatively ill just remove the loose frets and reseat them.

Definitely not rocket science, but a delicate task requiring both knowledge and craft. This project will help you learn some skills along the way. You might make a few mistakes, but you'll gain valuable knowledge.


Pierre

_________________
Pierre Castonguay

This is what we call "fallout" and it is quite normal to have some at the end of the fingerboard. Just how much is open to debate and/or playing style. YMMV


Pierre

_________________
Pierre Castonguay

"at the end" yes, I dont believe this is done for the last 7 or 9 frets or so. At least Ive never seen any guitar like that.


So, i get the neck straight, then sand it with a long radius block right? the neck is straight between the 1-12 fret so I should be good if I use a notched straight edge and a feeler gauge and use 1 to 12 fret as the guide for neck straightness

Before fretting a board I try to neutralize the truss rod, the sand it perfectly flat from nut to the last fret. I know that with a screw on neck like you appear to have the string tension will pull some relief into it and I know that it will stop in the area of the heel. I also know that the truss rod will have very little affect above the 16th or so fret. I also know that fretting might introduce a very slight amount of back bow due to the compression in the slots.

So, I level the board completely with the truss rod neutral, then fret it. If there is any back bow I'll use the truss rod to adjust that out (I only use double acting rods). Then I level the frets perfectly flat from nut to 22nd or whatever the end is. Crown and dress them, dress the ends. I no longer worry about the fretboard since I can't do anything about it (in fact, I don't own a notched straight edge because it really doesn't tell me anything, plus I do a bazillion different scales).

Once the neck is on the guitar and strung up I check every fret again with a rocker, paying particular attention at the neck to body joint (16 to 18th fret usually). I let the tension pull whatever relief its going to into the neck, then I use the truss rod to bring the relief down to 4 or 5 thousands. I'll do the setup as usual, but I pay attention to what I call "next fret clearance" - I fret each string at the first fret and measure the clearance at 2, then I move up the neck fretting each one and checking the next. Ideally the clearance will be the same or slightly rising, if I see any humps or tightening I'll go back to that fret and figure out what is going on.

Refretting isn't rocket science but it takes some time and care. You will learn why a good fret job can cost several hundred dollars/

ps - are you going headless on that?

thanks, guess ill just take the advice on this board and level it with the truss rod neutral, if i do need to. The Fall away might be a positive thing .. just maybe, Ill just have to fix the lousy fret job and string it up and see what i think about it. But I know that how it looks really bothers me.

Would be nice to get the fingerboard sanded with fine grit sandpaper as well, i think rosewood looks really nice when sanded down to 1000 grit. Dont know if i would try doing this with the frets on.

Yep, its a headless Steinberger DIY kit.

Sorry for bothering you good people about my neck again, but i got to do some measurments and checking. The truss rod turns both ways, I am able to make the neck go both concave and convex so it got to be a two way truss rod. As B. Howard said: there is a middle point, or neutral position, where i dont have to apply any pressure to adjust it. Turning it either way from this point I have to apply a little force.

In the pictures i have adjusted the rod so that i can fit a 0.06mm feeler gauge between the straight edge on the 2th to the 12th fret. Just slighty banana and the straight edge is not rocking back and forth when i apply preassure to either end.

When i put the truss rod in the neutrol position (no force needed to turn it) the straight edge rocks back and forth when i apply preassure in either end. Applying no force to the straight edge, the neck is slightly upwards bent, I am able to fit a 0.08mm feeler at the first fret. at the 17the fret i can fit a 0.20 and at the last fret a 0.25

Would you even out the fretboard in the neutral position? or would you try stringing the neck see if this setup works as a fall away? I guess my main problem, if i try keep this "fall away" is to level the frets. I do not have any fall away on my other (expensive) guitars and they work fine.


https://imgur.com/tKMYanb

https://imgur.com/YHKJUGL

If it is a bolt on neck with a two way rod my advice is put it together and string it up and adjust it. See what it does with 145# of tension on it...... Two way rods allow for adjustment either way to compensate for things like this where the wood has changed a bit since it was made half way around the globe.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

well yes, if i do level the fretboard with the trussrod netural i might have problems of not being able to tighten the truss rod enough without it breaking the truss when string tension is adding.

Hmm ... what if i actually take the dang fingerboard off the neck, clamp it to a perfectly flat surface and sant it flat with a radius beam, then glue it back on.

It seems like you have two choices. First, you can try to make your Chinese neck usable - tap or clamp the high frets down (maybe with a little CA), level and crown them. Put it in the guitar as Brian suggested and see how much relief you have. Try to adjust it to whatever your standards are. You won't damage the truss rod if you are reasonable.

The second option is to pull the frets, which isn't trivial, or take the dang fingerboard off, which is really not trivial and try to make it better. If you decide to refret it you have to level and crown the frets anyway, why not try it first on the stock ones (unless you really want to put in Evo).

I have encountered four or five Fender style necks from the Pacific Rim, all of them required some fretwork, none of them required refretting. I have a very high standard for what I expect of frets - I was able to get there with "normal" leveling and crowning.

FWIW, with unfinished fretboards I simply use 0000 steel wool when I'm done with the fret work and when I change strings. I am one of those folks who do not use any sort of oil or product on fretboards - others feel they need it and that is fine.

Well, i am able to get the neck perfectly straight, that is between the 1 to about the 12th fret. I cant even put a 0.02mm feller gauge bewteen it. the fallaway at the higher frets is 0.15mm at the last frets. This is the position i will level the frets in. I think it should work fine.

Of course, now I need to find out how to level a neck with a fallaway.

I also need to superglue the frets properly in as they are not properly seated. I do not actually know if they are glued or just hammered in. First i will try to heat the frets at the bad spots with a iron and hammer them in, if they are glued this might work. I tried hammering them in without heating, that did nothing.

Fall away doesn't hurt, it just means you can't get the action as low as you might like in the very upper part of the fretboard. Acoustics have it all the time, but most acoustic players don't go above the 12th fret. What can hurt is the little hump you get between the area with relief and the the upper part of the neck - often that occurs at the neck to body joint (the neck is stiffer up there and the truss rod generally doesn't have any affect). I will frequently level the frets, string it up and adjust the relief, then see how bad the hump is. Sometimes its OK, sometimes it needs to be finessed.



Crappy diagram but you get the idea

I'm guessing your frets are not glued in - that is pretty rare. And again, without seeing the board its pretty hard to give advice but if you can slide even a 0.002 feeler gauge under the crown then it isn't seated properly.

I was only able to get them flush with the fingerboard by clamping them. Im going to make a radiused wood block so i can clamp down the hole fret. Got some water thin superglue and beeswax Ill apply to the fingerboard before putting the superglue on so I can remove the glue easily afterwards.

I know its not designed for it but I use the quill of my drill press to press frets



I also give the ends a light tap with my fretting hammer to make sure they are down, particularly on bound boards. One of these days I'll buy an arbor press.....

fwiw, I use water thin superglue on frets and find I can scrape and sand the excess easily without anything like wax.

I would do it the same way if I had a fret press insert caul. If i am not able to get it properly clamped with my diy radius block, I will buy one. I am not going to get a perfect radius with my diy radius block. However, i made the wood block thinner in the middle and making it a 10" when it should be 14". The idea is when I apply pressure with the clamp (set in the middle), since the wood blank bends easily, the center of the radius block will hit the center of the fret and press it down, then since it 10" radiu, the frets 14", and the wood being thinner in the middle - the sides of the the radius block should provide enough pressure to force the fret ends in.

Like this basically. Will it work? I dont know yet.




Actually there might be no need for the top curve, I think it should work just as long as a 10" radius will provide enough pressure for a 14" fret. maybe I should mkakte it 7" even.

When I fret a new board its before its glued on the neck and I can apply a lot of pressure (the big block of wood under the f/b). When I'm refretting I almost always hammer them in because the shape of the neck gets in the way (Fender necks are easier, I have a cork lined caul that I can put behind it). When I encounter a high fret I try hammering. One of these days I'd like to buy or build one of those vice grip thingies that StewMac sells - for now my little hammer and the drill press seem to cover the bases.

Your cauls might work fine, my thought however is that if you can't tap it down with a hammer you probably can't squeeze it with a wooden caul. Don't know, never really tried, report back.

btw - I think fret work is a real art. It is also the key to a good playing guitar

Well, I got the neck and bridge attatched and stringed it up. All seems to be good at this stage. As I thought the nut need to ble lowered a bit as the strings are not resting properly on the zero fret, otherwise I cant see any major problems.

It has very little high frequenies, which is not a bad thing. I think its due to the nature of basswood, Joe Satriani chooses Basswood for this reason. By the way, does finnishing the guitar do anything to its acoustic tone?

I am going to glue the sides and the back of the neck pocket. There are some small gaps some palces and the idea of a combined set and bolt on neck intrigues me