Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi everybody,
I am a bit a a newbie to guitar making/restoring and I have been looking at electric kit guitars for a while now. One that I really love is this one a Les Paul hollow body

My question for you guys is one: is this kit ok? I know the electronics are less than nice but I have seen some stuff from a custom guitar shop in the uk that rewired some crap pickups and what not and came up with something not too bad. It is basswood with a maple top and maple neck. Question number 2: the finish I would love if at all possible is something like this or this
What should you do to get a similar finish? And what products can I use? The cheaper/easier the better.

Thanks guys!


Tyson k

Finishing is not easy and is not the place to be cheap and save a few bucks....The finish you showed was most likely sprayed with shading lacquer.

You may be able to get the same effect with a dye stain direct on the wood. But if the maple top is a veneer instead of a full cap you will get only one shot at it.

So my questions back to you are, Do you have spray equipment? What type of wood finishing experience do you have?

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

I don't have a lot of experience but I am willing to practice. Also I am willing to spend the money if needed. That is not a big issue. As for equipment what do I need? I have access to a paint sprayer but something tells me there is a difference between an airbrush and the type of sprayer one would use to paint walls...


Tyson k

http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/video/how-to-create-a-sunburst-finish.aspx

Tyson, if you don't want to spray the tint on, I found this to be a good little video on applying water soluble dyes. You can always spray a harder/protective clear coat overtop if you don't trust shellac. Mind you, this method won't get you that completely opaque deep black on the outer edges.

As always, test on scraps.

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

That looks like a good option! Thanks! Also has anybody had much experience with aerosol spray lacquer?


Tyson k

Tyson, first a big welcome and second, a few comments to add to what you've already been told.

The one in your picture isn't really a les paul - normally a LP is solid body (that is either chambered or possibly whats called "semi hollow body (like an ES-175). Not that that is bad, its just not a Lester. I went to the GTS web site and they do have a true solid body LP style guitar. You can also view their instructions on line.

As far as the quality of the kit - that is pretty hard to say without looking at it - the important things are that the neck fits the body correctly and at the proper angle - that is called a 'set neck" which means that it is glued to the body at the correct angle for the strings at the bridge. The instructions are pretty poor - it just says "glue the neck in and apply some clamps" without really telling you a lot about the angle.
Here is another option - this was on the kit subforum a short time ago. The builder is in the UK but its pretty easy to have stuff shipped to the US or Canada (I have bought kit amps from the UK)

viewtopic.php?f=10122&t=46837

As far as finishing - I think the three hardest parts of building a guitar (including a kit ) is setting the neck angle, doing binding (the plastic trim around the edge, probably already done for you) and finishing. Home finishing will never be as good as a professional job and each of us struggles with how to do it with limited facilities. Adding the shading, staining and 'bursting in your example is very hard to get right but it is possible. Obviously your pictures are two different guitar finished in slightly different fashion but I am going to guess that the top one had a black stain applied directly to the wood and then sanded back - that highlights the figure. Probably a coat of shellac or thin lacquer to seal and help adhesion, then the 'burst was probably spray with tinted lacquer, followed by clear to give the gloss. I get acceptable results using a small gravity feed HPLV spray gun with a home sized compressor with either nitrocellulose or what is called "water born" lacquer. Nitro is dangerous, explosive, toxic and other bad things but gives the best finish and is relatively easy for a newbee to work with. Water born is almost as good and much safer.

A couple more things about the finish - the plastic binding in your pictures is masked (tricky) and/or scraped (also tricky) after the color has been applied. The picture of the kit looks like it has binding but its hard to tell - the fretboard is certainly bound. It looks like the peg head has not been shaped - you will need a band saw, saber saw or something to do that.

Last comment - a kit that sells for $150 is not going to have very good hardware or electronics (its possible to spend that much for a couple of pups alone). My suggestion, if you want to go ahead with this is buy the kit, assemble it and do your finish. Install the hardware provided and see if its playable and if you are satisfied. You can always change pickups, bridges, tuners if you want to upgrade later.

Good luck, keep us posted

I used rattle cans of nitrocellulose lacquer (available at lutherie supply houses but I understand they may not ship to Canada) on my first two. It doesn't build as fast as a spray gun so you need quite a bit - figure 5 or 6 cans at least. It can give a very good finish if you prepare, apply, sand and buff carefully. It is still toxic and explosive (spray outside, wear a respirator).

It is possible to do a 'burst with it but not easy. Staining the wood is independent of what you put over it but is a one shot deal - definitely practice on similar wood to what you will be finishing. Actually spraying the 'burst with rattle cans would be a nightmare in my opinion, I just don't think you have the control. Stewmac does sell tinted lacquer rattle cans (including black) and they do have instruction on doing a 'burst - once again, practice on scrap

http://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and_Su ... cquer.html

Thanks freeman that is great help! What I may do (have not decided yet) is something along the lines of doing some water based dyes like Alain pointed towards then sanding it back slowly to try to create the effect from the second picture. Then afterwards do a lacquer or shellac clear coat. What are some satin finish options? It looks like the guitar in the second pic is more of a satin than a gloss finish. And I think your right about the bindings I looked close and saw this in the neck joint
Which looks like binding to me.
And I actually like the hollow body les Paul like guitar, I know it is not a true lp.

Thanks again everyone!


Tyson k

Oh, Tyson, one more thing (please don't think I'm raggin' on you). You will only get a finish like your pictures with certain woods. In both pictures the wood is probably maple - the top one has a lot of "figure", the second one just has the grain highlighted a bit. Most Lesters are mahogany body and neck with a maple cap - you certainly will not get any of that effect on the back and the top will be whatever the wood presents you with. Often we will hand pick the wood for our guitar based on the grain and the effect that we want to achieve.

Here is a LP clone that I built a few years ago - the maple had a lot of figure, I wanted a vintage '57 style of burst



I wiped a coat of brown stain in alcohol, sanded that back and sprayed a coat of amber



then the 'burst





The mahogany back was pore filled and given light coat of the brown to match it to the top.

This one is KTM-9 water born lacquer and StewMac dyes, my little gun



Here is the final product



Different effect to what you want but similar methods

Yeah I know I won't get a perfect result. I am just an (extreme) amateur. You know what they say hope for the best expect the worst. (And no I don't think you putting me down haha). The kit has a maple top it won't be that special of a grain I know but it should at least have a grain right? Haha. By The way beautiful job on that les Paul!


Tyson k

There are lots of satin options. One is to still shoot lacquer and simply not buff it to the final gloss. Sometimes people will use something like 0000 steel wool to knock the gloss off. You can also shoot lacquer with higher solids - again StewMac and others sell satin lacquer.

Other options include all the furniture finishes and lots of home builders use these. TruOil, which is a gun stock finish is very popular and can be applied without spray equipment. It is often used on necks even if the body is glossed. There are lots of others - I don't use them because I personally don't care for satin finish and I try to get the most gloss I can.

I tried to do a stained sunburst on a mandolin one time - this was wiped onto bare wood







I did end up shooting some tinted lacquer with an airbrush. Came out OK I guess



Again, this is water born lacquer, not nitro

Ok?! That looks fantastic! I actually saw spraygun just like yours at a local department store that was not that expensive The biggest problem for me is getting the lacquer as I believe stew mac won't ship it to Canada I would have to find a Canadian distributor... I know I can get truoil though so that could be an option for sure!


Tyson k

Tyson, lets do this. If you think you want to build that guitar I'd say go ahead and get it and we can help. Ideally there might be a builder somewhere near you who can help but there are a lot of good resources hear at OLF. While you are waiting for it to arrive you can research finishes and other options.

When you get it show us some pictures - we can think about finish options then. Also I have a lot of pictures of several LP style guitar that I've put together - I can help you with neck angle and all of that stuff. I think we can help you make a playable guitar - which is always the first goal.

If you would like, I have several build threads that I can send you for background. I also suggest getting a copy of Melvyn Hiscocks book Make Your Own Electric Guitar and StewMac's book Guitar Finishing Step by Step.

Since technically this is a kit I might suggest putting it in the Kit subforum but you'll get a lot more response here (and it is an electric guitar). Anyway, lots of good folks here who want to help you make a good guitar and enjoy the experience.

That's sounds like a great plan freeman thanks for all of your help! One thing that I have realized though is that I may have to wait a few months because it is winter and I would not be able to do any finishing stuff until it warms up a lot! Oh the joys of living in Canada! But anyhow I will build this guitar for sure. I just sadly may have to wait.


Tyson k

Also I have found a couple of spray can lacquers that I could have easy access to. Watco and beauti-tone Watco has better reviews than beauti-tone for sure so I think that could be a good way to go. Now would it be better to use the spray can kind or in a can and put it in a sprayer (that I would have to buy). One guy who reviewed the Watco stuff said it is his go to for guitar finishes...but anyhow. Thanks a million for your help I am excited to see the finished product!


Tyson k

The Watco product might be just fine, I have no experience with it. What you want is nitrocellulose lacquer - there are other kinds of lacquers (including car finishes) that don't work as well. A suggestion might be to get a can of it, some scraps of maple from a local lumber yard, whatever kind of dyes that you think you might want to use and start experimenting while it warms up.

Most of us shoot somewhere between 10 and 20 or more coats, with rattle cans you need more coats because it doesn't have the high solid content. On the mahogany back and neck you will need to "pore fill" (the StewMac finishing book tells all about it).

If you decide to use a gun you will a small compressor (mine is an 8 gallon unit that I bought at a yard sale) and a filter and water trap. It would be pretty easy to put a hundred bucks or more into your spray rig - worth it if you are going to build lots of guitars, maybe not for one. Advantages of the gun is that you can dilute the lacquer depending on conditions, you can add "blush eliminator" if its humid, and you can mix the dye into the lacquer to create what ever color you want.

Sounds like you've got time to kill - do some serious research.

Sounds good, can I experiment all that well in -15 c and get positive results? I will probably have to wait for some 1+ weather... But I can research and research I will! Also I just bought an amp today so I guess I am kind of committed! Haha


Tyson k

Here is a link to an article I did on spraygun set up that has some info that will be useful if you decide to go that way.
http://howardguitars.blogspot.com/2015/ ... brian.html

I prefer a compressor for spraying. I have used turbine systems over the years and they are nice. being self contained is a bonus too. But for shading bursts I like the ability to use that air at the cap to control fine atomization. You can get a nice Fuji or Apollo turbine unit for $500-$700. A set up with a compressor will cost at least double that. This is something you must decide how deeply you want to get into.

Again I mention if you go with a rubbed on or dye directly on wood and the top is a veneer you will get one shot at it. there will be no sanding back and trying again, especially with black.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Contact these guys for finish material... They have a lot of experiences with this and you are neighbors.

http://www.woodessence.com/Default.aspx

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Guitar Building = Continuous Improvement Process

Hi Raymund,
Here's my first try at a black finish.
I used transtint black dye in water applied to bare wood.
I put on three coats or so and sanded some off to let the maple show.
You can build up the color without soaking the wood.
Then I used steel wool to lighten up the center.
I experimented first on some scrap maple. I advise experimenting.
I shot nitro lacquer as the finish.
There's lots of youtube videos showing dyeing techniques.

If your kit already has a sealer applied, you may just have to use a tinted finish.
Sanding the thin veneer could be difficult without sanding through the veneer.
I have used Deft rattle can lacquer, but I found it never fully cured.
Best of luck!
Dan

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