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fanfret layout
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=42700		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  msween [ Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  fanfret layout
Hey guys, I'm planning out my next build, which is to be a mutli-scale. Just a quick question as I haven't been able to find a definite answer anywhere. when I'm laying out my scales, say 25.5 on the first string and 27"on the 6th or possibly 7th, do I plot them parallel to my center line, or should the positions follow the lie of the string? It seems like following the lie of the strings would provide greater accuracy, but maybe the typical plots for fret positions already take in to account the angle at which the strings lie relative to the center line....???
I hope that made sense.... to clarify, with my slotting templates, shall my markers on the 25.5"scale template be marked parallel to centerline, or stay in line with the string?

Since i'm here, I guess I've one more question... The piece I would like to use as my fretboard is a piece of flamed maple left over from a drop top I did on a strat-style solid-body. It's not perfectly quarter-sawn, the grain runsat an angle, but the wood has been laying around here for near three years and the piece is still dead straight. it is soft-maple i believe, but it certainly seems plenty strong, and the fact that it hasn't warped at all in three years I've had it leads me to believe that it should be okay to use as a fingerboard. Should I only be using quartered pieces for fretboards, does it need to be rock maple? Could this have a negative impact on tone if I do use it? I can certainly get my hands on the proper wood if needed, but the figuring in this piece is very nice, I love it.

thanks
Author:  Bob Matthews [ Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: fanfret layout
I've used this programme http://www.ekips.org/tools/guitar/fretfind2d/ and found it to be invaluable, you can then export the data and print it out.
I'll leave others to add their comments to your second question.


Bob
Author:  the Padma [ Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: fanfret layout
Don't know why peoples make this so complicated.

All things are relative to all things...or better still ...the low E is relative to the high E. no matter what the fanning is.

Now whats common...usually the 7th or sometimes 8th on a fanned neck is the perpendicular, so to speak.


So now play air guitar, show the finger...slide it up to the 14th, draw that slanted line down to the point that intersects with the 7th fret line extended.

That intersection is the center point for all the radius lines ( ok fret lines ) that is ergonomically suited to your arm and finger...oh ya the finger is were its at dude. Oh my ...yes is true.

So now all your frets are radius lines from that center that intersect with the calculated fret positions on your high or your low string. (don't matter.) Chose one and only one cuz , yup, all the other ones will be relative. Oh my!

Draw in the radius lines that intersect with the fret, bridge and nut positions of your chosen scale length and slot away...simple eh
Author:  msween [ Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: fanfret layout
the Padma wrote:
Don't know why peoples make this so complicated.

All things are relative to all things...or better still ...the low E is relative to the high E. no matter what the fanning is.

Now whats common...usually the 7th or sometimes 8th on a fanned neck is the perpendicular, so to speak.


So now play air guitar, show the finger...slide it up to the 14th, draw that slanted line down to the point that intersects with the 7th fret line extended.

That intersection is the center point for all the radius lines ( ok fret lines ) that is ergonomically suited to your arm and finger...oh ya the finger is were its at dude. Oh my ...yes is true.

So now all your frets are radius lines from that center that intersect with the calculated fret positions on your high or your low string. (don't matter.) Chose one and only one cuz , yup, all the other ones will be relative. Oh my!

Draw in the radius lines that intersect with the fret, bridge and nut positions of your chosen scale length and slot away...simple eh


I think I understand what your saying, however I don't know that that answers my question... great delivery though, thanks.
I understand that it is relative, depending where my perpendicular fret is, which in this case I've chosen the 8th fret. I simply mean that when locating the saddle for the high E, with a 25.5" scale, what distance from the nut do I use to place the saddle. If I follow the lie of the string when plotting my fret positions, then the high E should be 25.5" away from the high E slot of the nut. as opposed to 25.3 for example if plotting parrallel to the centerline..... I might just be overthinking it. I just want to be sure that the instrument will intonate well when all is said and done.
I suppose technically it wouldn't matter if I plotted the scales either way, as long the saddle placement was correct... So, let's say for example, my saddles allow 1/4" travel for adjusting intonation, should my 25.5" for scale length end at the mid point of adjustment for the saddle? Should the string gauge be determined before finalizing this? my brain may just be constipated today, it's probably much simpler than I'm making it out to be in my head. it is monday afterall....
Author:  cbrviking [ Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: fanfret layout
I lay out the strings first (I use a cad program) with the nut width and string spacing at the bridge close to what I plan to use. Then I put down the 'vertical' fret, which for mine is the 9th fret. Then I measure forward and backward from that fret and put in the correct fret placement on the 1st and 6th strings. Connect those points and I have where the frets lay, including where the nut goes.
Author:  lactose [ Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: fanfret layout
I don't think I have ever made a non-fanned fretboard (I can buy these all day long at any store). My routine is to decide what scales lengths I want (I tend to stick to 1.5 inch difference between treble and bass, I have seen some that are 2 inch). Next I cut a strip of paper the shape of the fretboard. Next I go to stewmac and plug in my scale lengths and get the distances. I mark the paper, then mark the neck. If I radius the FB after this, I usually have to deepen the slots.

Making a fanned fretboard means I have to manually cut the slot (can't use one of those guides). Also means I have to manually tap the frets in (can't use a press since the effective radius of the fretboard / neck changes as the slot rotates, which doesn't match the radius of my caul).
Author:  the Padma [ Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: fanfret layout
msween wrote:

I think I understand what your saying, however I don't know that that answers my question... great delivery though, thanks.

what distance from the nut do I use to place the saddle.




What!??? Dude...me still trying to understand Donald Duck and you understanding the ?admas babble. Gee you must know how to consult your own pineal gland....YAY!

Ok...me see where you trying to fingure out how the numbers work. Is how loofern is taught now days. Sad. NO intuition!...no from the heart!, gut all plugged up from a Stu Mack attack or some udder sorta a mack. Non the less.

Well me no buy that load of yesterdays dippers. pfft Nope, no way.


Me a scribe cut and fit kinda dude. Oh ya and 67 years of using me years to hear with.

Translation: Me sting em up in the white off a bottom end temporary trapezoid tail piece. Oh my!,(yes is true) Then me slips (Vaseline don't work all that well here) in a temporary fulcrum (ok Bridge and saddle) and pick and listen, slide her up a ways and pick and listen, then down a ways and listen and pick, and pic and listen and tap that fulcrum some more till it sounds right, and the light in me head goes off and, and and me mark (NOTE: me said mark, not measure) the fulcrum point (saddle to you uninitiated heathens). Then do it all over again for the next string and the next and so on and so on and morons and mediocrity know nothing beyond itself. Is true!

Repeat for all the stings. Repeat some more.

Make new temporary saddle. Repeat above for fine tuning. Repeat some more.

Then in the morning, while me still sober...listen some more and pic some more. Lay down some tunes and, and, and, eventually me, me ear, me gut, me heart and me voices (Ya me hears them real loud and clear, well sometimes) come to some sort of consensus.

Thats when me fashion the first of me bridges on the way to "getting it right". Cuz everything changes when you loose the tail piece and glue the bridge down...without the saddle slots cut yet. You know ~ just in case ya wanna make some real fine 'toon time adjustments. laughing6-hehe

Actually, now you know why me don't make many flat tops...is a hassle to get the friggen bridge and saddle just right. Is why me make arch tops were the bridge can slide around with the weather.

Think you know that box you just made...right! Try playing it in the white for a few weeks with a sliding bridge and saddle.

Ya, all dis takes time, is fun and real.

Those of you addicted to the measuring tape,
do as thou pleaseth.


Blessings
duh ?adma
Author:  msween [ Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: fanfret layout AND BRIDGE OPTION?
Padma, this one stumped me, lol.
I'm looking at bridge options, and I've found several different idividual saddles available, I've also seen many people make their own baseplate and buy a set of saddles to install to fit their fan. I've thought about making a bridge from wood, and making my own saddles out of hardwood, and making a bone insert for where the strings will leave the bridge. tonally, would this work, or should I go with metal saddles like everyone else does?
Author:  lactose [ Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: fanfret layout
I have tried a number of approaches. The uncle bob bridge has worked ok for me (socket head bolts into a plate with wing nuts holding the strings) but is not pretty. You can cover it with a piece of pretty wood.

Some people take a roller bridge and install it kind of crooked to match the fanning. I have gotten strat bridges to (barely) work by adjusting the high strings way forward and the low strings way down.

On a quick 2x4 headless bass I built, I used a wooden bridge that is held on only by string tension (easy adjustment). Of course if you are using magnetic pickups, you want some kind of metal touching the strings, otherwise the pickups have lower output, and they are noisier since you don't get grounded touching the strings. The bone approach might be nice if you are going to embed piezo pickups. I saw an acoustic guitar with six pieces of bone coming out of the bridge. On the acoustic guitar of course you better get the bridge / saddle in the right place from the start (unless you use a really wide saddle).

I will have to decide shortly what I am gonna do about the bridge on my current build. I am finished paying $300-400 for these bridges. I tried an approach with aluminum u channel that seemed to work ok in a test. I am leaning towards going with my tried and true uncle bob approach and just putting a pretty rosewood plate over the mess. It will still require the use of a hex wrench for tuning. :(

Padma is great about doing things in some unusual way that ends up working out. It is easy to forget on these forums that there is more than one way to skin a cat. But step away from tradition (like I always do) and you get extra problems to solve.
Author:  cactus [ Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: fanfret layout
hi

to make it simple, find the "middle" scale length. 26.25" in this case. lay it all out like a normal guitar - string spread at bridge, nut width, string spread at nut.
then like viking was saying, establish your parallel fret. measure along the big E string line FROM THE PARALLEL FRET to establish the nut & bridge position, then the same for your skinny E. you dont have to solve for any of the other strings.

(stew mac's fret position calculator will show you the distance from "x" fret to nut. mark the nut position with that measurement, then measure out 27" from the nut, along the string line, to establish the bridge position for the bass E. on a side note, since you'll likely be using individual saddles or something custom, move the theoretical bridge placement on the bass E away from the nut about 1/8" to accommodate intonation. on mine, the saddles gradually taper to 1/8" offset on the bass side.)
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