Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi guys new to site and can't actually find what I'm looking for so I am asking straight up. I'm not new to wood working or finishing wood but am about to try something different.

I would like to build the Neal Moser guitar shown in the pic below and instead of veneering the top and polyurethaning it like I normally would, I want to put that hard candy colored finish on it. But here's the question what type of paint do I use and what kind of clearcloat do I use if any.

_________________
In order to make an apple pie from scratch you must first invent the universe.
- Carl Sagan

Check out F.O.F. Custom guitars on Facebook.

Www.fofcustomguitar.weebly.com

True candy paint consists of a tinted color layer (often over a metallic layer), and then layers of clear.

For instance, you'd spray metallic silver, then a red tint (for candy apple), and then clear. You DO NOT sand after the metallic layer until you get a few coats of color on it. Then... lots of clear.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

That looks like a blurple metallic. I wouldn't suggest spraying a candy unless you are VERY experienced with painting as it's easy to tiger stripe candy colors.

Candy paint finishes are traditionally a clear coloured pigmented lacquer or varnish over a ground of one of the four precious metals ~ gold, silver, copper, and brass.

However in the last few decades finely ground and coloured mica particles are sometimes added to the clear coat (which now tends to be epoxie, poly, acrylicor other clear casting resins) producing an opalescent or pearlescent sheen, metallic shimmer, interference or iridescence and duo iridescence to the finish on top of the candy effect when applied over one of the metallic bases (which may now also be a metallic coloured mica)

Look up Pearl Ex Pigments by Jacquard Products to help get you started...one of
their .75 oz/21 g bottles gonna go a long, long and I do mean long way in doing guitars.

When artistically applied over a mica metallic bass some incredible sunburst can be obtained.


blessings
?adma

_________________
.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

Ok maybe candied was the wrong terminology. What I meant is I want to reproduce the solid color paint job you would find on any BC rich, Ibanez or classic fender type guitar. I don't want any metallic, pearlescent, opalescent or color shift paint. Just want to paint it a darker blue shade with a "hard candy shell".

Also I learned when I built my Bastard V that it was easier to brush paint rather than spray because if all the fins and flourishes, so I really want to steer away from spray.

Laquer is no good for me, too soft and dings easily. I really want to use a poly but it yellows. I was thinking maybe a polycryic. I have an acrylic paint that's excellent to use with polyurethane. Maybe I could add the paint to the polycrylic?

_________________
In order to make an apple pie from scratch you must first invent the universe.
- Carl Sagan

Check out F.O.F. Custom guitars on Facebook.

Www.fofcustomguitar.weebly.com

Lacquer is soft?
Since when?

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Maybe it's the type of laquer I used. I have some testors that I used on a project and I can peel it off using my finger nails. It could be environmental too. I do live on an island. I don't know. Teach me please!!

_________________
In order to make an apple pie from scratch you must first invent the universe.
- Carl Sagan

Check out F.O.F. Custom guitars on Facebook.

Www.fofcustomguitar.weebly.com

brass is an alloy of copper and zinc...

...perhaps the OP bases his "too soft and dings easily" comment on vintage guitars that were finished in nitrocellulose laquer, which today are now bare wood at contact/abrasion points. i think the hardness/brittleness of nitrocellulose is what makes it fly off wood so easily; it cures under a tension, much like glass hardens when it cools too fast, so impact shock makes it "explode"
just theorizing

Yes nyazzip, is true, brass is an alloy.

However in the historical art world of application and treatment such as icons and other painted special effects, which we are talking here, brass was considered the 4th metal.

To day, in the commodities world, the four precious metals are really now about ten or so. Besides gold, silver and copper we now include ruthenium, rhodium, palladium, osmium, iridium, loyruthenium and platinum. There are a few others, but we wont go there, besides me don't know their names .
======================

@ Duhjoker...the effect you are describing me believe is still a transparent colour over a metalic ground as described by Chris Pile. Although white may also be used as the ground, it does not reflect as much light.
Now the "hard candy" properties you are describing would probably best be obtained with nitro.

With in the world of "candy" there are literally dozens of "candy effects" alone.

The language of colour and applications of finishes is an exact language. For example...
tint, shade, hue, chroma, solid, transparent, opaque, candy all have very specific meanings.
You use the term "solid" ~ a colloquialism usually meant to mean "one colour" or also an opaque colour as opposed to transparent or semi transparent or translucent which are common "candy" terminologies. Bottom line...

Suggest taking Flipos words to heart. Then get back to us if need be.


blessings
Padma

Ps: then of course you could always just ask Neal how he finished the ax. <nealmoser@cableone.net>
simple eh.

_________________
.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

To get that kind of a finish, you actually need to spray an undercoat of white or gray primer. White will brighten the color, gray will darken it.

Get the primer coat as smooth as you can as that will determine how nice the color looks. Then you spray the color coat with an opaque (solid, not transparent or translucent) layer of the desired color as smooth as possible with no sanding after, then clear coats.

For "Candy" colors, you would do the metal flake over white or black primer, then tinted transparent laquers, then clears over that.

_________________
Old growth, shmold growth!

Ok so I did some looking up of what I want and think I have a pretty good idea of what to do. And I looked up nitro laquer and see what you mean. Stew Mac offers a quart of clear and a tint for under $40 which is reasonable.

Yes what I call "candy" is a hard plastic like shell.

I had thought of asking Mr. Moser for his advice but thought a master like him would have his own secret and wouldn't want to waste his or my time on a fruitless effort. But a good idea.

Thanks everybody for your help I'll keep you all posted in my progress once I start.

_________________
In order to make an apple pie from scratch you must first invent the universe.
- Carl Sagan

Check out F.O.F. Custom guitars on Facebook.

Www.fofcustomguitar.weebly.com

I bet he would answer you. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, no? Or is it the sincerest form of mockery? Either way, I bet he would answer you.

_________________
http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

I don't believe you'll be able to do the same finish as is on the guitar pictured. I believe that is one of the newer catalized poly finishes, which is harder and tougher than nitro lacquer. It may also require some specialized equipment, some is cured by UV light. Generally, it's too expensive for the amateur builder to get set up to do it.

I've never used any of the catalized poly finishes, but there are pros on here that have, maybe one of them will chime in.

You can get the same appearence from nitro lacquer, but your prep work must be really good to get that "hard candy shell" you're looking for.

Check out the websites of the people on here that are giving you advice, I suspect they are just as accomplished as Mr. Moser. The real "masters" don't rely on secrets, they publish their methods and techniques. If Mr. Moser isn't willing to share, there are "masters" here that are.

_________________
A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

For colors like that in a non air dry lacquer look to automotive refinish products. Two part urethane are not soft, cure quickly and can be mixed in most any color. I use them over an epoxy seal/fill.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Maybe just a simple 2 Pak clear over base by just about any brand from just about any auto supplier? That colour is probably automotive or a derivative. He could pick the colour from a sample book,then he can get product specific tips over the counter from the guy selling it. Also, most shops will put it in a can for you as well. The issue with good paint is rarely the product, there are exceptions, but more the prep, application and final cut and buff. If you can get the product on pretty flat, you can make it look legit. Nothing beats practice.

With a solid colour just use watered down timbermate for a grain filler. It's easy, doesn't shrink and is non toxic. I've even used gyprock compound for grain under paint. No problems so far and you can do it all in 45 minutes or so. Allow to dry obviously. Epoxy is difficult for beignets and experts alike, toxic, messy and takes ages. Looks fantastic over grain under clear though. Can't beat it for that.

Automotive finishes don't usually work very well on acoustic guitars, but I see no reason they wouldn't work on an electric. It's probably a lot easier to get that look with an automotive finish.

_________________
A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

obviously not blue, but timbermate under, can of repco primer, forgotten brand clear over base from an auto supplier. Glossy, flat, 4 days tops. Admittedly I have a few years up my sleeve but the product is almost irrelevant is the point I'm trying to make. I'm not being a dick, I'm just trying to make life easier for myself, and hopefully someone else.

Agreed. I have 20 litres of Protec r100 timber finish left for my acoustics. They've stopped making it. I don't know what I'll do when that runs out. I don't really want to go back to Mirotone.

I just happened to check out this side of the forum and saw this post so I thought I would chime in. I have had a lot of experience spraying candy colors as I use to work in the auto body business mainly doing custom and restoration painting.

The pic you posted is a candy purple over a white base. You can use any color as a base coat as long as it is a good solid color that covers well in 1 or 2 light coats. The "color" is actually a tinted clear that you can see through. I use to make my own candy colors from automotive tinting colors and have sprayed them over all kinds of base colors. This kind of paint work has been done since the 50's so it has been around for a long time.

The most important part of doing any base/color/clear paint job is in the prep. It was nothing for me to spend 150 hours just prepping for a custom paint job... That is just priming and blocking to get a perfect flawless base.

A trick that most guys use is called a guide coat or dust coat. That is after you have primed the surface you then fill you spray gun with thinner and just slightly tint it with a color. The color doesn't matter because you will sand it off the next time you block sand. This tint will show up every imperfection in the surface as you sand. You then re-prime it and put another dust coat and re-block it with finer sandpaper. Do this until all imperfections are gone and you are down to 400 grit paper.

When you are ready to apply color you have to lay down a very very smooth base coat. You can not sand this coat (or the color coat) so these need to be sprayed perfectly. Next you start with the color coat. Again it has to be sprayed with perfect overlap of your spray pattern or you will get a striped finish where the stripes are darker. It usually takes about 3 coats of color to get a good deep color but the more you put on the deeper the color will get. When you are happy with the color then you start spraying clear. After about 2 or 3 coats you can start wet sanding between coats if you have any imperfections but do not sand through to the color or it will show.

A finish like that is not easy for the "average" handy man and I would suggest going to your local pawn shop and buy a couple of cheap practice guitars to learn on. I say you should learn on a guitar and not just a scrap of wood because you need to be able to lay down the color coat all the way around the edges as smoothly as you can and that will take practice.

Good luck with your project.

Bob

Wow ok, a lot of good answers and a lot to consider. I actually did go ahead and ask Mr. Moser about his paint after all. He said he doesn't have the time or room for a booth to do his own painting so he sends his pieces to DRLgraphics and that Dan Lawrence was the master painter.

Ok so I'm not an inexperienced painter with a brush or spray. I've painted everything from mine and my friends bicycles to models to cars. My first guitar build the Bastard V I keep trying to post but won't for some reason took me over a week to to sand and fill and veneer then seal the veneer yada yada yada. So don't worry I know all about getting that flatness your talking about. I actually started the clearcloat process with spray urethane but it ran a couple times in the fins so I started over with brush and found it easier to work with and get flat so I had that glassy finish you need to set the black walnut veneer off just right.

So thanks everybody for your help. Thanks Bob for the detail. You have all given me a lot to think about. I will keep you all posted.

Also a practice guitar is a great idea I just so happen to have a first act I bought for $20 years ago from a friend that I keep stripped for learning purposes. I call it the purple POS. So yay I can practice with a couple things to see what I like best.

_________________
In order to make an apple pie from scratch you must first invent the universe.
- Carl Sagan

Check out F.O.F. Custom guitars on Facebook.

Www.fofcustomguitar.weebly.com

...are you aware of the school of thought that claims that the thick, candy-dipped plastic finishes affect tone negatively on solidbody electrics? not trying to go off topic, but i thought i'd mention it. i am on the fence about it, probably leaning towards the "thin/nitro" crowd......by the looks of that metal guitar example, i am guessing you are probably in to heavily processed sounds anyway, so the tone argument wouldn't matter much....just throwing it out there

While factory applied finishes, especially on import stuff, tend to be rather thick ( have seen .09" !), a two part urethane finish goes on really thin. System average is around 2-3 mils in its original application. I have used it on both electric and acoustic guitars with great results. The key is in what you put under it to seal the wood and anchor it. I have been using epoxy on entire instruments and ca for repair and touch up. Since we are on the subject anyway I'd like to ask what others may be using as a sealer under this type of finish?

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Why yes I am aware of the negative tonal qualities produced from to much paint and clearcloat. I thought of that when I picked my tone wood. I'm using alder which I hear fender used in the 50's and 60's. I don't see too much of a difference after all fender put thick coats of paint with hard shell then too. If I'm wrong tell me. Also I'm actually an accomplished Violinist and I play everything from classical guitar to hard and heavy Drop D. Tone is important but over the years I've learned how to make even a crappy First-act guitar sound right. Skill and the players own ears can make up for a lot. I'm not saying I'm gonna put a crappy job in my guitar just saying there are a lot of other factors that combine to get the guitars actual tone. I don't mean to sound like a smart ass. Just stating what I've learned through the years with personal experience.

Y'all really have given me a lot to think about. I'm leaning toward the nitro for now, found enough to do two guitars for under $10, so that's looking good to me. But since tone was brought up how about we wait and see what the grain of the wood looks like after I join the two pieces and decide the best procedure from there. Again thanks everybody for all your help.

_________________
In order to make an apple pie from scratch you must first invent the universe.
- Carl Sagan

Check out F.O.F. Custom guitars on Facebook.

Www.fofcustomguitar.weebly.com