Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop

Ok I'm trying to wrap this around my mind. Are you using a router to do the arching? When you say, "final depth of top carve" are you refering to the difference from the thickest part of the top to the top of the binding?

Hmmmmm, what if I Arched the top (before it is glued to core, so I still have a flat side to work with) then used a router table with no fence and a bit with a bearing that only allowed a set depth, with a bit that is 1/4" tall to match binding height. Then glued binding to top plate, sanded flat and then glued to core? Does that make sense?

There are several binding cutter jigs available that will help you do it right the first time. Check out the ones sold by some of our advertisers, I think that the forum has some plans available as well.

Al

Someone may have already pointed this out, but the method demonstrated in this video will serve you well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIdrOJPfh_A

Acoustic guitars have the exact same issue that you describe because the top, and particularly the back, are not flat surfaces.

As a side note, have you considered making the guitar hollow? An ES335 sized guitar that is solid body will be quite hefty.

I don't make 335s, but I dio build their little brother the 336, this size of body is generally found to be more comfortable to play by the majority of players, I believe a sold body 335 size guitar would be almost unplayable for most players. The 336 is a chambered solid body with a carved top and back this makes it both lighter and more comfortable to play. I bind both the top and the back but cut the binding channels before I carve the top and back. I know the profile I'm going to shape to, so I make an allowance for iit when cutting the channels. For instance If I want to use a 6mm binding and I'm going to carve the top down 4mm at the edge then I'll cut the binding channel 10mm deep, I can then lay in a piece of binding and mark the channel to the depth that I'm going to carve to.

Cutting the channels on a flat plate is far easier to do than after the plate has been shaped, as the radius over short distances of the carving is far greater than it is on my acoustics.

Coolest one!!! Hand made, no routers, no Fox benders, jesus! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHpQLbiaqkA

The binding router jig, 3 pages of Luthiers Forum http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopi ... 01&t=37656

I,ve bound about 10 guitars, and still don't have a router holder slider thingee.
I've found with a gramil set up for the top cut,
and a Sloane style cutter set up for the side cut nice,
so you don't have to change the two.
Alan

Author:	heloflyer [ Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
Hello, new to this forum and luthiery. I am building a guitar based off a 335 design except it will be a solid body. But I want it to look like a 335 minus the F holes but with the arching. I'm trying to figure out the best way to rout for the binding. Once top and back are arched, I can't run a router on it because it won't sit flat on the surface. But I'm not sure it would work well to run the routing before I arch, which would require that i arch close to the already glued in binding and sand down to the binding when i got close. Any suggestions on the best way to do this? I hope this was clear, kinda hard to explain. Thanks for your help! Ben Core - eastern maple Sides, back and neck - black limba Top - redwood Binding - cocobolo

Author:	Mike Baker [ Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
Welcome to the forum! i have been contemplating this myself. I build carved top set necks mostly, and I don't have a binding routing jig or anything like that. Mind you, I have not tried this method yet, but... I route the top carve using increasingly smaller templates for each ledge of the top carve. I'm thinking of routing the binding channel first, then using the templates to route the carve. In other words, assuming the final depth of the top carve is 1/4", then I would use the binder routing bit to route a half inch tall binding channel(assuming 1/4" tall binding), and then route the top carve with the templates, which should leave me with a 1/4" binding channel all around the top of the guitar. As I said, I haven't tried this yet, but I think it will work. Alternatively, a gramill and chisel could be used to cut the binding channel after the carve is completed.

Author:	heloflyer [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
Ok I'm trying to wrap this around my mind. Are you using a router to do the arching? When you say, "final depth of top carve" are you refering to the difference from the thickest part of the top to the top of the binding?

Author:	heloflyer [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
Hmmmmm, what if I Arched the top (before it is glued to core, so I still have a flat side to work with) then used a router table with no fence and a bit with a bearing that only allowed a set depth, with a bit that is 1/4" tall to match binding height. Then glued binding to top plate, sanded flat and then glued to core? Does that make sense?

Author:	Mike Baker [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
heloflyer wrote: Ok I'm trying to wrap this around my mind. Are you using a router to do the arching? When you say, "final depth of top carve" are you refering to the difference from the thickest part of the top to the top of the binding? Yes to all of that.

Official Luthiers Forum! http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=39977	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Mike Baker [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
heloflyer wrote: Hmmmmm, what if I Arched the top (before it is glued to core, so I still have a flat side to work with) then used a router table with no fence and a bit with a bearing that only allowed a set depth, with a bit that is 1/4" tall to match binding height. Then glued binding to top plate, sanded flat and then glued to core? Does that make sense? If you're talking about flipping the top over and working from the other side, I wouldn't want to try that. You'd have to find a way to make the top sit flat and still while resting on the arch. Before I did that, I'd get a grammil and do it by hand, which is probably what I'll end up doing anyway.

Author:	Peebs [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
There are several binding cutter jigs available that will help you do it right the first time. Check out the ones sold by some of our advertisers, I think that the forum has some plans available as well. Al

Author:	heloflyer [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
If you're talking about flipping the top over and working from the other side, I wouldn't want to try that. You'd have to find a way to make the top sit flat and still while resting on the arch. Before I did that, I'd get a grammil and do it by hand, which is probably what I'll end up doing anyway.[/quote] I was more thinking of running the flat side down on router table. I'm looking for this grammil tool, is it possibly called another name? I'm having a hard time finding it. Thank you

Author:	heloflyer [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
Peebs wrote: There are several binding cutter jigs available that will help you do it right the first time. Check out the ones sold by some of our advertisers, I think that the forum has some plans available as well. Al I will check those out as well. Thank you. I should probably stop trying to reinvent the wheel. : )

Author:	Mike Baker [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
http://www.lmii.com/products/tools-services/binding-tools/schneider-gramil

Author:	heloflyer [ Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
Mike Baker wrote: http://www.lmii.com/products/tools-services/binding-tools/schneider-gramil Seems like a worthwhile tool

Author:	Irving [ Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
Someone may have already pointed this out, but the method demonstrated in this video will serve you well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIdrOJPfh_A Acoustic guitars have the exact same issue that you describe because the top, and particularly the back, are not flat surfaces. As a side note, have you considered making the guitar hollow? An ES335 sized guitar that is solid body will be quite hefty.

Author:	Colin S [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
I don't make 335s, but I dio build their little brother the 336, this size of body is generally found to be more comfortable to play by the majority of players, I believe a sold body 335 size guitar would be almost unplayable for most players. The 336 is a chambered solid body with a carved top and back this makes it both lighter and more comfortable to play. I bind both the top and the back but cut the binding channels before I carve the top and back. I know the profile I'm going to shape to, so I make an allowance for iit when cutting the channels. For instance If I want to use a 6mm binding and I'm going to carve the top down 4mm at the edge then I'll cut the binding channel 10mm deep, I can then lay in a piece of binding and mark the channel to the depth that I'm going to carve to. Cutting the channels on a flat plate is far easier to do than after the plate has been shaped, as the radius over short distances of the carving is far greater than it is on my acoustics. Colin

Author:	Mad Raxz [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
Coolest one!!! Hand made, no routers, no Fox benders, jesus! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHpQLbiaqkA The binding router jig, 3 pages of Luthiers Forum viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=37656

Author:	alan stassforth [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
The one on the right is the sloane purfling cutter. On da left is the gramil. A Oh, windows computer. Had a Mac before, and don't know how to reduce the size. Send me a personal message, with yer e-mail, and I will send pic. A

Page 1 of 1	All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/

Author:	heloflyer [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
Irving wrote: Someone may have already pointed this out, but the method demonstrated in this video will serve you well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIdrOJPfh_A Acoustic guitars have the exact same issue that you describe because the top, and particularly the back, are not flat surfaces. As a side note, have you considered making the guitar hollow? An ES335 sized guitar that is solid body will be quite hefty. It won't be completely hollow, but I will be routing out as much of the maple as I can to reduce the weight. Thanks for the vid that's an interesting set up.

Author:	heloflyer [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
Colin S wrote: I don't make 335s, but I dio build their little brother the 336, this size of body is generally found to be more comfortable to play by the majority of players, I believe a sold body 335 size guitar would be almost unplayable for most players. The 336 is a chambered solid body with a carved top and back this makes it both lighter and more comfortable to play. I bind both the top and the back but cut the binding channels before I carve the top and back. I know the profile I'm going to shape to, so I make an allowance for iit when cutting the channels. For instance If I want to use a 6mm binding and I'm going to carve the top down 4mm at the edge then I'll cut the binding channel 10mm deep, I can then lay in a piece of binding and mark the channel to the depth that I'm going to carve to. Cutting the channels on a flat plate is far easier to do than after the plate has been shaped, as the radius over short distances of the carving is far greater than it is on my acoustics. WOW! Your pics are stunning. That guitar is beautiful. I will will look into your method as well I like what you are saying. As far as the solid/hollow debate I will be routing away as much weight as I can in the core. So, I guess it won't be completely solid but chambered in some way. Thank you.

Author:	heloflyer [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
Mad Raxz wrote: Coolest one!!! Hand made, no routers, no Fox benders, jesus! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHpQLbiaqkA The binding router jig, 3 pages of Luthiers Forum http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopi ... 01&t=37656 That is cool I've looked into the gramil method a little I'm somewhat scared of it, mostly because I'm not sure of my patience . : ). I'll look into that thread as well. Thanks Radz

Author:	alan stassforth [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
I think the gramil is the way to go for 3 reasons. 1-Do it by hand first, so you know how it was done in the old days, and appreciate the newer methods. 2- You don't want to spend a lot of money on something you might use, only once. 3- It's good idea to score the binding ledge with a gramil before routing, so if ya get a router holder thingamabob, it'll still be usefulllll!!!!!!!1 I,ve bound about 10 guitars, and still don't have a router holder slider thingee. I've found with a gramil set up for the top cut, and a Sloane style cutter set up for the side cut nice, so you don't have to change the two. Alan

Author:	Mad Raxz [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
alan stassforth wrote: I,ve bound about 10 guitars, and still don't have a router holder slider thingee. I've found with a gramil set up for the top cut, and a Sloane style cutter set up for the side cut nice, so you don't have to change the two. Alan No THAT'S what a Luthier should know how to do! ........I wish I could do that. Could you post some pics of your Gramil & Sloane style cutter set up?

Author:	alan stassforth [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
Okay, I will tomorrow! A.

Author:	heloflyer [ Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
I think I will pick up one of those gramils. Thanks for all the advice everyone. I'm sure I will be back for some more.

Author:	Ken McKay [ Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newbie: routing for binding on 335 solid body archtop
A router mounted under the table with a doughnut. The body rides on the edge of the doughnut while the cutter cuts the ledge. The router has a bearing guided bit. Use your knuckles to keep the body level. It takes a bit of practice but works well.