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| Source for Swamp Ash? http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=39360 |
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| Author: | Chameleon [ Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
http://woodworldtx.com/ Last time I was in here they had a bunch of swamp ash labeled "guitar stock" and it was pretty cheap. They're in Texas though, and not sure if they deliver. Their website says "online store coming soon". |
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| Author: | nyazzip [ Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
have you checked in the swamp? ...i have some waders you can borrow |
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| Author: | RandK [ Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
exoticwoods is in NJ. Stewmac also and their shipping is fast (their price will include something extra for shipping since they don't price shipping based on size/weight). |
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| Author: | Chameleon [ Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
Yeah I think that stuff at wood world was more like 10/bf or so. That's probably not the right number but I know it was nowhere near 25/bf, I think that's how much their cocobolo is. It's just big billets, you'll have to cut and join it. |
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| Author: | nyazzip [ Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
here in chicagoland, the Emerald Ash Borer beetle has been a huge issue for the past decade- officials have cut down huge areas populated by ash trees in order to stop infestation(not really sure how that helps). i'm assuming they must burn the wood and certainly not sell it. maybe there is paranoia or regulations now that is making ash difficult to trade? i did read earlier that "swamp ash" is not a different species, just a softer wood produced from ash trees growing in wetter environments. i believe "red ash" and "green ash" are the same as "swamp ash" |
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| Author: | James Ringelspaugh [ Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
picky or cheap: pick one |
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| Author: | Patrick R [ Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Source for Swamp Ash? |
Try these guys http://www.globalwoodsource.com/home |
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| Author: | NightOwl [ Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
nyazzip wrote: maybe there is paranoia or regulations now that is making ash difficult to trade? If the trees had the "EAB" I dont think you are supposed to cross county lines with the wood. I bought a nice set on ebay a while back that I was happy with, I tried to search my email for the seller but couldnt find anything |
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| Author: | Mike_P [ Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
Gallery Hardwoods |
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| Author: | Bob Shanklin [ Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
Filippo Contact A & M Wood Specialty, Inc. They sell swamp ash for 9.70 per BF. They sell blanks also but for $75. http://www.forloversofwood.com Also check http://www.woodfinder.com Bob |
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| Author: | Stuart Gort [ Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
This is the ONLY place I saw 8/4 swamp ash even mentioned. At $8.50 it might be worth calling them but there are no pics at the web site. Good luck with this. A while back I looked for it and was also discouraged by the prices. But without a pic at least...I'd never order like this. http://www.willardbrothers.net/DimensionalLumber.php |
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| Author: | Mike_P [ Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
if Filippo is looking for a decent supply, then perhaps it would be worth the associated costs of getting it...surely the prices for blanks (and gallery seems like the lowest by far, though I notice the webpage has apparently not been updated for a while so prices listed may not reflect current times) are rather high, especially at specialty supply houses...taking into account the real factors of the current $.53/mile vehicle rate, actual time spent digging through a lumber yard (a "businessman's" time is surely worth something), etc., the price paid for a blank MUST reflect said investments above the simple cost of the wood...and that should also include waste as a lumberyard is not going to let you get a piece of wood and take only what maximizes your use... IMHO if a person wants to source woods from a supplier then one must establish a relationship of some sort with them. I used to have a source at a local hardwood supplier (he's since retired) and at the very least I had to be available at a moments notice to come over and check out a piece, and if I requested a piece I had to be willing to pay for it immediately upon its becoming available (i.e. no window shopping, no bullsh!ting, etc.)... then there is the scratch my back and I'll scratch yours...I can, when needed, pull in a favor or two because of things I've done in the past (like making referrals to builders, using woods that cost me labor monies because of its issues, etc.) and usually get some results... as far as swamp ash, I've rarely seen it around for a while now (see the above post about insects eating the stuff)...got one 8/4, 14" wide board @ 7' from the retired guy about 8 years ago for $80 after tax and haven't seen any since in this area... the real crux of the situation for your typical luthier is this...simple scales of operation...it seems to me that a person who uses a few boards a year is going to have a rather difficult time establishing some sort of 'cheap' arrangement with a lumberyard...it costs money to go through boards, etc...lumberyards do NOT operate that way normally...they get an order, take the boards off the top of the pallet, calculate the b.f., and ship them off to the purchaser...pretty much end of discussion...please pay attention here, I am talking about your run of the mill yard, not some place that has acquired some sort of specialty status (which is going to cost more) like Gilmer Woods, etc... |
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| Author: | Mike_P [ Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
I'm sure you have already done the following: put in a special request with your known suppliers and be patient. Everything I've heard about ash over the last few years indicate it is becoming a precious commodity and very subject to the vagaries of supply and demand (and I'm sure major manufacturers are demanding a LOT of it) |
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| Author: | James Ringelspaugh [ Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
Filippo Morelli wrote: lex_luthier wrote: picky or cheap: pick one Random sawn, random figured is hardly picky , but the prices ain't cheap. Filippo Swamp ash is supposed to be very light (<3lb/bdft) compared to normal ash and my experience is that decent wide stock that weight is by far the exception... maybe that's the disconnect? I mean, I can get really nice 8/4 ash all day for under $5/bdft, but if I want really light stock it simply ain't gonna happen unless I'm super lucky or find the right guy and pay a large premium. |
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| Author: | Mike Baker [ Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
Years ago, when the term "swamp ash" first started to be used, it referred to ash that had grown in and around water, the theory being that this caused the wood to be more porous and lightweight. It also meant the price was a little higher because the places it was sourced were limited. Nowadays, "swamp ash", depending on the supplier, can be any reasonably light weight ash he happens to have on hand ("Oh, you mean "Light Ash?", says the wood guy). But he still wants that "premium" price ("Hey, I've still gotta go through the wood and find the light stuff, right?", would be his reply). These days, for the most part, the term "swamp ash" is a misnomer. You're better off using your head and hands sorting through the wood yourself for the lightest you can find, and dropping the term "swamp ash" and using "light ash" with your customers. MHO. Edited to add: And the fact that it is really, really hard to find ash that is light enough is the main driver of cost. Try it yourself for a while and you'll understand, I think. |
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| Author: | klooker [ Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
I realize that it's not "Swamp Ash" but regular Ash is abundant & cheap in Ohio because of the borer. I assume they're able to kiln dry it close to where it's cut. Just a piece of information. Think I'll drop by the sawmill near my work & check the density of their stock. Kevin Looker |
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| Author: | ZekeM [ Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Source for Swamp Ash? |
Supply and demand Chris. People want it and will pay more therefore it costs more. I say go and sort through ash and find light pieces and buy them. Dont ask for "swamp ash" just lightweight ash. |
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| Author: | Mike Baker [ Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
verhoevenc wrote: Mike, I get what drives a business, but thanks. My crux is you cannot tell me that the work put into finding swamp ash is exorbitantly higher than that of finding good rosewood, high exotics, etc. for back and side sets. I sort through a TON of lumber regularly so I know what it takes. Like Filippo said, no real specifics folks are looking for besides weight, they don't have to resaw into time sets and sand it, all they have to do is sort through... which guitar suppliers are doing for ANY type of wood anyways. I don't think that demands the price increases it is going for. Also, do we know that it's a piece-by-piece weight issue, or would we expect an entire tree to be "light ash" if one piece is. If this is the case I feel even less comfortable about the price increase! They could weigh a whole pallet then and get a pretty good idea about whether or not they have light ash in one fail swoop. No sorting required. Chris Can't argue with any of that, and wasn't. But if you have sorted through enough ash (and I know you have) then you know how incredibly difficult it is to find good, lightweight ash. The suppliers know this, and they know that you know this. Hence the price they are asking. Is that the right thing for them to do? I don't have the answer to that. But I can tell you that they are going to charge what the market will bare(as you already know), and the scarcity of good, lightweight ash is why they can get away with it. Right or not. Fillipo, I'm sorry I don't have any real answers for you. But I suspect that you have far more suppliers than I can even think of compared to me. If you can't find it, I'm up the creek without a paddle(or a clothespin). I wish you the best of luck. |
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| Author: | Mike_P [ Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
Mike Baker wrote: Is that the right thing for them to do? I don't have the answer to that. sure, there is an answer.... total loss of Freedom and going to a socialistic (totalitarian) society.... there is the side of me that agrees with the annoyance and angst about supply and demand...I hate it when I know major manufacturers are sucking up all of the supply... hopefully the logical, freedom loving side of me will continue to win out... i.e. suck it in and deal with it like a man...sheesh...go out and dig through pallet upon pallet of materials (IF they let you) to find what you are looking for...or pay the piper and get it from somebody who's already done that for you... FWIW, if I had some known source of the stuff I'd relay the info for nothing...but I don't, and that's that... |
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| Author: | nyazzip [ Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
as long as this thread is veering off subject, why not just use regular ash, and chamber it out a little to make it lighter? i assume any conversation about ash involves only solid electric bodies... |
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| Author: | Chameleon [ Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
nyazzip wrote: as long as this thread is veering off subject, why not just use regular ash, and chamber it out a little to make it lighter? i assume any conversation about ash involves only solid electric bodies... +1 |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
I have noticed a lack of continuous supply of alder as well lately, so a couple of years I bought 1/4 logging truck worth of logs and have been cutting a bit up just to see if it is possible to start to offer this product as well. I have processed a bit and I think I can offer it. But there is a lot of work when you are only cutting for guitars. All of the knots have to be avoided (cut out and thrown away) and you have to make sure that you select dimensional increments that will work. I want to be able to supply as many one piece blanks as possible and if I have to do a glue up (which I will) then I want all of the pieces at least colour/grain matched, i.e. from the same tree. There is still a bunch of work, it has to be sourced, transported to the yard, bucked, loaded onto the mill, sawn, sawdust swept off (or it stains bad!), stickered and dried. It takes a lot of space to do this as well. I have a small kiln in the plans with the parts already purchased but the alder will require 30 to 45 days in the kiln as well, with fans and dehumidifiers that cost money to run. So, at the end of the the day the price has to reflect all of this or people just won't do it. The other problem we all have is that much of your swamp ash is likely now exported to Asia, by the container load, about 40,000 bd ft per container. So the harvesters and mills would much rather deal in these volumes then find 1,000 to 2,000 bd ft orders at local hardwood distributors. I have the same issues finding spruce logs, I only want the best of the small volume that is being harvested and the log brokers find it bothersome to deal in these small volumes, even if I pay more, because they can sell it all, unsorted to Asia. Anyway, Alder will be available soon if that helps as an alternate. Shane |
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| Author: | nyazzip [ Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
Quote: I have a small kiln in the plans with the parts already purchased but the alder will require 30 to 45 days in the kiln as well, with fans and dehumidifiers that cost money to run. ....there must be a way to incorporate at least some solar energy into a kiln...much like a solar food dehydrator. hmm.... |
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| Author: | NightOwl [ Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
nyazzip wrote: ....there must be a way to incorporate at least some solar energy into a kiln...much like a solar food dehydrator. hmm.... There are solar kilns but they only dry the wood to around 12%. To get it below that you will need to run a dehumidifier or vacuum. Filippo I hope your new source works out well, if not maybe try asking at a sawing forum. Forestryforum.com is great , woodweb.com also has a sawing section |
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| Author: | Parser [ Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Source for Swamp Ash? |
Hey Filippo, it looks like our local exotic lumber store in Annapolis carries 8/4 ash for under $5 a board foot. Not sure if regular plain old "ash" fits your bill, but they have a ton of cool stuff there. Hope that helps. Trev |
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