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| Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=37615 |
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| Author: | dzsmith [ Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
Saw some new Fenders with pine bodies featuring knots and cracks - made from hand seleted trees. Really? Any comments? |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
Well.... I wouldn't personally, but I will not stand in the way of anyone who wanted to build with pine. I say power to 'em! |
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| Author: | Mike Baker [ Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
I built a P bass out of 100 year old pine. It is everything a P bass should be, IMHO. Great instrument. Here's a link to that build, if you're interested. http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32498 There are a lot of builders using pine now. Especially Fender style instruments. I have some more old pine I'm saving for something special. That's how much I like it. I personally would not build with knotty or cracked wood of any kind. But I would also not build with very new pine, nor with moldy wood, or wood infested with fungus, or spalt. But a lot of builders do build some really beautiful instuments with that type of wood. Variety is the spice of life. Viv la diference! |
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| Author: | John Sonksen [ Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
you can buy bodies at Stewmac made out pine: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bodies,_necks,_wood/Electric_guitar_shaped_bodies/Golden_Age_Knotty_Pine_Body_for_Tele.html I think this is one of those areas where people can go back and forth, on and on about the effects that using different woods for solidbody guitars has, but I'm still not convinced it's that important. Seems like the pup's, amp, effects and overall strength of construction all have more to do with the sound and feeling of the guitar. I'm new to building but in my research I found the argument that the fit between the neck and body has the biggest impact on sustain and tone regardless of the wood used, was the most compelling. Obviously I took this to mean wood that is consistent in it's density relatively, and not stuff like spalted or barnwood which could have a dampening effect on the sustain (if it's used as the main body and not just a top). To me the argument came down to how pickups work. The poles in pup's pick up the vibration of the string as it moves through a magnetic field. It doesn't operate like a microphone where modulating air pressure and frequency is transformed into an electronic signal through an interaction with a diaphragm. Therefore even if the wood used was reflecting a tiny amount of the auditory output of the strings back up off of it's surface, there isn't an element of the magnetic pickup that would allow it to transform this into an electronic signal. So it leads me to think that getting a tight neck joint where the neck and body are effectively unified will do the most to affect the sustain of the strings, which in turn will have the biggest impact on what goes into the pup's. Like I said though, I'm new to this and I'm sure there are many arguments that wouldn't agree with my take. To me though, this seemed to make the most sense and be the least subjective at the same time. |
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| Author: | Shaw [ Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
There have been a few custom builders who have been building with pine for quite a while. There is one who has used old reclaimed pine wood from floor rafters from old buildings in the Bowery section of NY. Some nice stuff. The first Fender prototype and some of the broadcasters and no caster where made from pine. Fender now seems to be just jumping back on the bandwagon because it seems to be the quite popular rage now and I guess they figure they figure can make a buck at it....Mike |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
The guy who makes the pine bodies that SM is selling was at the Philly guitar show a few months back. He was selling them for $69 if I remember. I know it's the same guy because he was selling the same little pick/parts trays with the body cut-out with his logo in them rather than SM's Golden Age logo. Had them stacked up at his booth like cord wood. Pine may be fine, but with those knots in it.........No way! |
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| Author: | dzsmith [ Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
IMO, the body does affect the sound. Consider that the strings are directly connected to the body through the bridge. The body will resonate and send those vibrations back to the strings through the bridge. |
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| Author: | Stuart Gort [ Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
The most excellent Sears Silvertone guitars were constructed with Pine bodies with Formica facings. ...and, of course, I'm being facetious about that. I just got the finish on a Port Orford Cedar body and neck. I am curious as to any tonal characteristics the Cedar may impart. I would expect Pine to be reasonably similar to this Cedar...assuming one can go by feel to any extent when predicting the sound of things. |
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| Author: | dzsmith [ Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
Well, I guess what struck me as odd was that the pine looked like a chunk of 2x12 from Home Depot. I've seen old long leaf pine that is quite attractive. |
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| Author: | John Sonksen [ Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
I'd be wary of pine that had knots right where I'd be looking to attach hardware because not only would it pose a challenge with machining, but it seems like such dissimilar makeup would have the largest impact on vibration. Of course I'm still not sure exactly how much vibration the body can take up or transmit back into the strings, but if that's something people want to consider when building I don't see anything wrong with it. |
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| Author: | Shaw [ Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
dzsmith wrote: Well, I guess what struck me as odd was that the pine looked like a chunk of 2x12 from Home Depot. I've seen old long leaf pine that is quite attractive. I have found 2X12's at home depot that have enough clear knot free wood to make a body that would look better then the stew macs. Yeah the knots would turn me off. But I guess they are going for the log cabin look or something. |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
Another thing came to mind on this. As someone mentioned earlier, Fender Started out with pine bodies. They switched to Alder pretty quickly. Wonder why? I'm sure it wasn't because Leo wanted to see his production costs increase. What problems did they run into? Hardware that wouldn't stay tight perhaps? |
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| Author: | Shaw [ Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
Leo fender thought that pine was to soft and easy to dent. He was marketing his guitar as a workingman's tool and it needed to be almost indestructible. Pine is very soft and wouldn't hold up to well if it was dropped or banged around. It had nothing to do with it's sound quality. |
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| Author: | Robert Renick [ Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
This is a pine body made in 3 layers, all pine 1/4" caps with a 1.25 core, the neck is 1" maple on the sides with a POC center. Definitely not Home Depot pine, no knots or cracks. The pinkish colors don't come through so well, subtle but pretty. The last one was similar with POC body and more POC in the neck. It is pretty easy to get used to a guitar that is less then 6 pounds. I don't feel much wood tone coming through the amp when all is done, but there is definitely a feel through the instrument to the player, however I believe the conversation of wood tone in an electric has to include fingerboard species. The softness and dent issues are an issue, but to me dents will look cool over time, I just don't want cracks. Also on the fender bridges, screwing into pine has to have some issues. The bridge made of wood with Baggs piezos, I look forward to comparing those against the same in a standard TOM bridge, I would expect minimal difference, but every things figures into the tone equation some how. I love the smell of the pine, it makes me and my shop happy. Rob |
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| Author: | Fran Ledoux [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
Check out this website: http://www.pinecaster.com I think he's been making them for quite sometime now. If you listen to the soundbites that are on the site, they sound just as good as any other electric and is quite impressive. When I had found this website, this started me wondering about how much the wood plays into the grand scheme of things when it comes to tone and what you hear. Not only do they sound good, they look as good as they sound (I know, anything can be made to look good). Fran |
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| Author: | charliewood [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
I would be concerned about the tangential shrinkage differences in the branch heart, i.e. knots, and the body wood - I would think over time the knots would invariably?/ or at least potentially separate from the body... Ive seen it in alot of woods, but it seems to happen more quickly in wood thats not under finish obviously. Im not sure if perhaps in certain cases people who build with knots try and stabilize them with CA or other some other type of wood stabilizers... One wood that I had never really considered in terms of a tonewood but have recently become somewhat enamoured with, is poplar... I have a 2011 Gibby Nighthawk that has a maple cap and a poplar body - I didnt know this initially... but was struck by the resonance of the instrument - its got more ring and sing than one $5400 custom shop Les Paul Ive owned - in fact its one of the most resonant electrics Ive ever played period.... I am surely going to experiment with it in the future.... The really funny thing is that on all the discussion boards I went on to talk about the Nighthawk... people ich and moaned about the poplar in the 2011 - about it being a cheap wood - people were complaining about it solely because poplar was "cheap wood".... most of them without even playing one Im sure! In fact the discussion boards on Gibsons site were also filled with negative comments about the wood choice of the 2011 NH and low and behold Gibson up and changed the configuration the following year to all mahogany construction - they may sell a few more - I guess thats all that matters... I wouldnt be surprised if this year of design becomes a favorite for real players however As far as pine goes its not really plentiful here as a lumber, more cedar spruce and fir primarily Cheers Charliewood |
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| Author: | Linus [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
In 1990 I bought a Benedicts Groovemaster from Roger Benedict at his shop in the Twin Cities. Spruce body. SWEET guitar. It IS soft and prone to dents and dings if it gets knocked roughly. Roger had a great reputation (he passed away quickly from lung cancer a few years later). Stevie Ray Vaughn had one, Jimmie Vaughn, Jackson Browne, the guitarist of Big Head Todd and the Monsters played one for a long time... Incredible guitar. |
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| Author: | Mike Baker [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
The first scratch build I ever did was made from poplar. Extremely resonant and responsive guitar. It fired me up to continue building. Love poplar. If I'm planning a solid color it's my preference, although I have seen some cherry-picked pieces that looked great under clear coat. |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
Shaw wrote: Leo fender thought that pine was to soft and easy to dent. He was marketing his guitar as a workingman's tool and it needed to be almost indestructible. Pine is very soft and wouldn't hold up to well if it was dropped or banged around. It had nothing to do with it's sound quality. Alder is barely tougher than pine, still fairly easy to dent. Western white pine Has a janka of 420, Alder is 590. Alaskan cedar is 580, so it's really not that tough but it does hold fasteners a lot better. As for Poplar, It is to inconsistent. Densities are all over the place from about 30-50 lbs per cu. ft. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
there are about 52 species of pine Yellow pine may be fine as that gets darn hard , white pine is pretty soft . Many people confuse spruce with pine. I personally won't use it as there are many better choices out there. Hi end pine isn't that costly and good ash isn't about $5 more in material cost in my area. Pine will work easy with hand tools so if you don't have many power tools it may be an option for that reason. Do expect every bump to show on white pine |
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| Author: | John Coloccia [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
I'm building a Tele style right now out of pine with a Padauk top. Pine can be a great wood, though as others have said it can be very easy to dent and develop hangar rash before it's finished. Makes it difficult to work with in the shop. The combination of Padauk and Pine is especially difficult because the the red dust tends to stain the pine, so you need to be careful, seal things, etc. I wasn't careful this time around and now I have a lot of scraping to do. I have no problem with stable knots. I see cracks as a problem. They are unpredictable, and I have no reason to think that it won't keep cracking years from now. I'd like to think I'm building guitars that will last 100 years, not novelty items. |
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| Author: | peters instruments [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
I have always thought that pine was a beautiful wood despite being cheep and readily available I think it is often a gorgeous wood. Its a close cousin to the spruces and cedars that are often used on guitars so why not use it? Bendetto made an archtop guitar from construction grade pine for pete sake! knots in a hollow body... thats asking for trouble, but in a solid guitar why not? check out some of the stuff coming from dismal ax. |
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| Author: | Ken McKay [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
Pine is OK so is brazilian rosewood, you just have to know how to make it work. |
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| Author: | Irving [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
B. Howard wrote: Another thing came to mind on this. As someone mentioned earlier, Fender Started out with pine bodies. They switched to Alder pretty quickly. Wonder why? I'm sure it wasn't because Leo wanted to see his production costs increase. What problems did they run into? Hardware that wouldn't stay tight perhaps? I made a body out of pine recently and it was very very soft. I wasn't sure when I was done tightening the strap bolts because they would not become real tight - the wood just began to mush up around the threads. |
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| Author: | John Coloccia [ Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Guitar bodies made from pine? Really? |
Irving wrote: B. Howard wrote: Another thing came to mind on this. As someone mentioned earlier, Fender Started out with pine bodies. They switched to Alder pretty quickly. Wonder why? I'm sure it wasn't because Leo wanted to see his production costs increase. What problems did they run into? Hardware that wouldn't stay tight perhaps? I made a body out of pine recently and it was very very soft. I wasn't sure when I was done tightening the strap bolts because they would not become real tight - the wood just began to mush up around the threads. I do this on all my bodies, but it's especially important on pine: harden the threads with CA. |
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