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Fret Level With Strings On :: Amateur Newbie
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Author:  MattyB [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Fret Level With Strings On :: Amateur Newbie
Hi all. First time posting here. I've been a player for 25 years or so and am really the furthest away from a luthier that a player could be. Over the last year or so I've started tinkering with assembling guitars (I can't say "building" because I didn't craft any of the parts outside of a pickguard or 2). After assembly, I've always taken the guitars to luthiers for setups and leveling and want to take a crack at this myself. What's the worst that can happen? ;)

Logically I couldn't see how removing the strings would benefit the fret level process. I don't think that the neck angle will ever be the same without strings as fully strung--even with those jigs I'd have to think there could be a slight difference. So I did a quick google search and found an old thread here on the forum that seems to answer most of my question:
Public thanks to Rick Turner --> http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=13189&p=184926&hilit=fret+level+aluminum+angle+strings+on#p184926

But since I'm new at this and paranoid that I'll ruin this neck of mine, I thought I'd sign up and ask away.

[*]Any good, cheap source to buy these aluminum angles? Home Depot?

[*]Should I use the "rocker" method to find the high spots?

[*]I've got the neck set pretty straight and the action set as low as possible to accommodate the few high frets. When I start sanding, should I just run the aluminum angle across the entire fretboard or just focus on the area I know is high?

[*]Once the frets are level, if/when I change string gauge, I'm thinking I would have to get the neck back to the same angle as what it was when leveled. Is that correct?

I'm guessing the aluminum angle works like this tool: http://youtu.be/xCq6hdqLey8. Anyone ever try this?

Thanks for reading through this. Go easy on me guys, I'm new ;)
-Matt
Author:  Harold_Donn [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret Level With Strings On :: Amateur Newbie
All I have to say is look at my post :-)

viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=37571

Don't be a lazy bastard like I was and protect your fret board BEFORE you take a file to it! :-)
Author:  Chris Pile [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret Level With Strings On :: Amateur Newbie
Matty - if taking the strings off the guitar will hurt the neck, then we wouldn't even be in business. And while I normally would respect Rick Turner's views - his process for leveling a neck sounds absolutely idiotic.

Take the dang strings off, OK?

And for what it's worth, I've been using the Stew-Mac neck jig since the mid-80's and it works great! No complaints from my clients after close to a thousand fret levels.
Author:  Rodger Knox [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret Level With Strings On :: Amateur Newbie
I think Mr. Turner's method may be OK for frets that are already really close, but trying to level frets with the strings on is sort of like trying to change a tire without stopping the car! For me anyway, but I've only been doing this 15 years. bliss
Author:  MattyB [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret Level With Strings On :: Amateur Newbie
Chris Pile wrote:
Matty - if taking the strings off the guitar will hurt the neck, then we wouldn't even be in business. And while I normally would respect Rick Turner's views - his process for leveling a neck sounds absolutely idiotic.

Take the dang strings off, OK?

And for what it's worth, I've been using the Stew-Mac neck jig since the mid-80's and it works great! No complaints from my clients after close to a thousand fret levels.


Didn't mean to insinuate that it was right/wrong/better to take the strings off. I'm talking strictly as a newbie. I never payed attention to the mechanics of the guitar and it has come back to haunt me.

My thought processes is that if you level while the neck is at "angle A" without the strings, when it is restrung , if you can't/don't get back to that angle, the leveling will be off. I'm probably over-thinking this thing. I just don't have a neck right now that I can afford to ruin.

I'm not trying to be controversial on my first post, but why do you feel that way about the stringed level? I would think that each process probably gets the same result, no?
Author:  B. Howard [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret Level With Strings On :: Amateur Newbie
The frets need to be dead level before you can set up a guitar to play well. No matter if the strings are on or off, dead level. The truss rod is an adjustment so relief can be set from dead level. Since you will be adjusting when you set up anyway, why fight with the strings when you level? you will need to remove them to crown & polish anyways.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret Level With Strings On :: Amateur Newbie
Quote:
My thought processes is that if you level while the neck is at "angle A" without the strings, when it is restrung , if you can't/don't get back to that angle, the leveling will be off. I'm probably over-thinking this thing. I just don't have a neck right now that I can afford to ruin.



OK - are you familiar with the process of using the Stew-Mac jig?
It allows the repairman to compensate for the lack of tension when the strings are removed.
It will get you as close to level as humanly possible, as long as the neck doesn't have any other problems (like a twist).
Author:  jimmysux [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret Level With Strings On :: Amateur Newbie
The best and fastest way I have found to level frets is to stick some sandpaper to a radius block that is of course the same radius as the frets and mark them all with a sharpie and take a little off at a time then check it with a rocker.
I have tried going through every fret with a file and a dressing stick, but inevitably I just keep chasing high and low spots forever. And I am not aggressive with my tool, I just have found the method I stated to be the best and quickest.
Author:  James Ringelspaugh [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret Level With Strings On :: Amateur Newbie
The angle aluminum trick is awesome if you have the expertise and experience, but would likely be a disaster for someone with no fret leveling experience. The $370 StewMac neck jig might be a little over the top for a non-pro. A long straight block with sandpaper (and the strings off) is probably your best bet IMO, unless you are willing to buy or make a radiused block... in that case jimmysux's method listed above is excellent.
Author:  Shaw [ Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret Level With Strings On :: Amateur Newbie
I recommend Stew Macs Fret Work Step-By-Step book. Great for beginners and even the experts.
Author:  Rodger Knox [ Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret Level With Strings On :: Amateur Newbie
MattyB, after rereading your previous posts, I have a few comments.
First, string tension should NOT change the neck angle, and the truss rod does not adjust the neck angle.
String tension DOES change the curvature of the neck, this curvature is called relief. The truss rod does adjust relief. A single action rod can reduce relief, a double action rod can reduce or increase relief.
Leveling the frets is the first step in a setup. There's lots of opinions about the "best" way to level the frets, and I'm not disputing that any of those methods will give better results, but not that much better. If it's a new neck that has never had the frets leveled, there could be a reasonable amount that needs to be removed to get the frets level. Doing that with the strings in the way would be a real PITA. If it's not a new neck, and the frets just need to be re-leveled, then doing it with the strings on might not be too bad. To level the frets, with the strings off adjust the truss rod so that the neck is as flat as you can get it. Then put masking tape between the frets so that no wood is showing, and color all the frets with a sharpie. Then sand with the flat beam of your choice, or even a file if you've got a good flat one. Be careful to sand/file along the string paths, and continue until all the frets have at least a little removed all the way across the board, the sharpie should make it easy to see. Them you're done leveling the frets. This is the cheapest, simplest way, but certainly not the best way. But it should be good enough to get the action down to 0.10" at the 12th fret, maybe even 0.08".
The next step in a setup is recrowning the frets, then setting the relief, then setting the action, then setting the intonation. I usually go back and check everything again, and maybe tweak the relief/action a little.
Sorry if you already knew all this, I didn't mean to insult your intellegence. And you can't really ruin a neck messing up on leveling the frets, you can always pull them out and refret the neck.

edit: If you have any questions about the other steps, don't hesitate to ask
Author:  MattyB [ Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret Level With Strings On :: Amateur Newbie
Thanks guys for all the shared knowledge.

Rodger Knox: Thanks. I get it, I just had the terminology wrong. But thanks for the details.

I'm gonna give the level a shot--no strings--as soon as I get the crowning files delivered.

Thanks again.
Author:  dzsmith [ Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret Level With Strings On :: Amateur Newbie
I bought a chunk of extruded aluminum angle at Home Depot to use as a leveling block.
It was a bit pricey but it has a good straight and level face that I apply sandpaper to.
However, it is difficult to know if I'm sanding the correct radius to match the fretboard.
As suggested, I may give a radiused sanding block a try.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret Level With Strings On :: Amateur Newbie
I level my necks and make sure they're dead flat before stringing up, but I also do a final fret level the rick turner way: tune up to pitch, adjust truss to as flat as possible, and then level with a bit of aluminum angle and sandpaper. It takes just a few minutes and works great.

I have no desire to spend the time and effort building (let alone buying) a StewMac neck jig since I don't do repairwork and really only set up my own guitars.
Author:  John Coloccia [ Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret Level With Strings On :: Amateur Newbie
re: StewMac neck jig

I just bought one, actually. Here's the real question.... Can you level frets, in our out of a jig, with or without strings on, crown them, and when you're done go over each fret with a fret rocker and have all the frets dead flat? Have you even tried?

There's no jig, tool or anything else that will get you to that point. You need to practice leveling frets. Once you can do a perfect job out of a jig, maybe you can do a more perfect job in a jig, or with strings on. The jig just brings a level of refinement to the job. IMHO, it's hard enough to level and crown frets properly out of a jig that you should get there FIRST. When you have the traditional method down pat, THEN add on to it. Change one variable at a time, IMHO.

The problem with leveling them with the strings on is that you can't CROWN them with the strings on, so you can't detect if your crowning is knocking stuff off. Maybe good for someone who's experienced, but bad for a newbie.

Just my opinion. Learn the traditional way first.
Author:  MattyB [ Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret Level With Strings On :: Amateur Newbie
John Coloccia wrote:
re: StewMac neck jig

I just bought one, actually. Here's the real question.... Can you level frets, in our out of a jig, with or without strings on, crown them, and when you're done go over each fret with a fret rocker and have all the frets dead flat? Have you even tried?
...
Learn the traditional way first.


I did the level the traditional way on a cheapo neck. I did a decent job, but more importantly I learned a lot. I made my own tool to check the board for level, used these sanding blocks http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXK315&P=ML, and a crowning file from Stew Mac.

The hardest part for me was leveling the board before and after the crown. Not sure why, but it gave me a lot of trouble. The crowning took a bit to get the hang of it, but not as bad as I thought it was going to be.

Thanks to all for your input.
Matt
Author:  philosofriend [ Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret Level With Strings On :: Amateur Newbie
You are thinking about very fine details of fret leveling. First you should get experience with doing it the simple way: Using a positively flat tool and running it gently absolutely parralel to the string paths until you kiss each fret all the way across. After you get used to the kind of results from the basic approach you may want to consider different theories of doing a more exact job. There are many of these theories, the stew mac tensioning jig makes a lot of sense, and the mighty PLEK machine uses a similar device to push on the neck while the frets are filed.
My own method is simple and depends on having a player that knows what strings they like and what action height. I want the strings to buzz equally all over the fretboard when I play a little harder than the player ever normally plays. So I play the guitar all over looking for areas that buzz more than others. I mark the specific frets that are too high with a brown permanent marker (yellow for a maple board). Remember, a fret too high causes buzzing on notes fretted one behind it: if it buzzes at 11 and 12, it is 12 and thirteen that need to be marked and lowered. You can identify them easier by tuning the guitar down a half step, using lighter strings and/or lowering the gibson-style bridge. (Incidentally you might learn at this point that the gibson-style bridge saddles need some notches filed to get all six strings to buzz equally, or else do a super fine height adjustment of fender individual saddles.) Use a small flat file lying flat on the board, parallel to the sting paths, to just barely file off the marker. String it up and try again. Sooner than you think the guitar will start to play like one consistent instrument all over the board.
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