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Making the transition from hand building to CNC
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=36195		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  jimmysux [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Making the transition from hand building to CNC
What are some of the thoughts on here about using CNC? I think of it as just another tool. And the most major portion of my college life is coming to a close soon I am thinking of purchasing a CNC machine and making guitars this way. I am not a CAD or programming sort of guy, so initially the first programs will have to be contracted out, but after a while I can see myself doing it all.
The pros I can think of are:
Less time
More precise specs
Ease of use

The Cons:
Cost
Faulty programs
Learning curve

Any other thoughts and/or opinions?
Author:  Chris Pile [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making the transition from hand building to CNC
Pro: repeatability.
Author:  Freeman [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making the transition from hand building to CNC
How about half way - a duplicating router?

I am an engineer and work in a machine tool shop with cnc mills, turning centers, and a laser cutter. My current project is the automation of four robots which will replace an bunch of manual labor in fruit warehouses. CNC's (and automation) are very big in my world.

Advantage - in a production setting you will make exactly the same part exactly the same way - lots of them. Necks, fretboards, bodies - whatever, you'll be able to shove a hunk of wood in, download a dfx file and presto - one more just like the last one. They are also relatively easy to change a design - want different pick up cavities - drop it into your model and bingo. Parametric design (where you use parameter instead of actual dimensions) is a cool way to modify things - for example if all your parameters are based on a scale length and you stretch it the bridge will move accordingly.

Disadvantage - they are incredibly expensive. The software is also and has a pretty good learing curve (we use Solid Works, there are others that are much cheaper). Your guitars will no longer be "hand made" and you'll need to sell a bunch to pay off the investment in tooling. If you build acoustics they won't help you optimize the tone (voicing, tap tuning, any of that stuff) - however Bob Taylor has had great luck using them to make a lot of identical guitars.

One thing to consider is making the models and having someone else actually do the cutting for you. There are lots of shops looking to amortize the cost of their mill. (We do that - if someone brings an autocad or solid works drawing and the material we will run it for them and just charge the shop time)

Because I have them available I use our cnc's (particularly the $800,000 Trump laser) to make templates. Because I like working with wood I still use chisels and planes to make sawdust.
Author:  jimmysux [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making the transition from hand building to CNC
No 800k investment here, I can get one large enough to do guitar bodies and necks with a mach 3 controller for about 5k. The software is pretty high too.
Author:  klooker [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making the transition from hand building to CNC
Are you still a student? Can you get an educational discount on software?

I can see using other people's machines but I think it would be tough to find someone to create the files for cheap. Then what do you do when there's a bug in the file and you're on the clock at some CNC shop?

Just my $0.02

Kevin Looker
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Making the transition from hand building to CNC
The Laguna IQ-Pro is a great little starter machine.

Solidworks has a student version for about $150 but you can't save...or they have disabled it's functional use somehow.
Rhino used to sell a student copy fro $200 that was fully functional but I don't know if they still do.

After taking a fresh look at the latest surfacing tools in Solidworks I'm buying an upgrade tommorrow.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Making the transition from hand building to CNC
Rhino still has student licenses, as does MadCam (Rhino plugin).
Author:  Freeman [ Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Making the transition from hand building to CNC
jimmysux wrote:
No 800k investment here, I can get one large enough to do guitar bodies and necks with a mach 3 controller for about 5k. The software is pretty high too.


Yeah, most of the commercial grade 3 axis machines that I see start at 20-30K, hobby machines that use your router seem to be in the 5K range. I don't know anything about them other than they seem popular for doing inlay carving. You would need to add duct collection and all of that, but you could probably get started at least. My point about the laser is that we have it, it is darn expensive so we try to keep it running, but it is really cool to lay out a head stock, shoot the drawing to the machine and have a nice 16 gauge templete for my router. But in my shop I still cut the wood with hand and small power tools.

Rather than subbing out the design (I think our shop charges $100 an hour for engineering services) it would seem to be a better idea to buy SolidWorks and do your own models, then sub out the milling until you get ready to buy your own mill.

You do know that there is a whole CNC subforum at the bottom of the page?
Author:  Don Williams [ Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making the transition from hand building to CNC
Con: One-off's are extremely expensive. Consider oodles of time at the CAD/CAM station and tooling and all that comes with it.

That's the reason why a lot of cnc vendors won't take work except with a minimum number of pieces ordered. I'm one of exceptions, but that's why I do it, to help folks who can't afford to buy a volume of parts. And I'm not making a living at it...
Author:  ballbanjos [ Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making the transition from hand building to CNC
jimmysux wrote:
What are some of the thoughts on here about using CNC? I think of it as just another tool. And the most major portion of my college life is coming to a close soon I am thinking of purchasing a CNC machine and making guitars this way. I am not a CAD or programming sort of guy, so initially the first programs will have to be contracted out, but after a while I can see myself doing it all.
The pros I can think of are:
Less time
More precise specs
Ease of use

The Cons:
Cost
Faulty programs
Learning curve

Any other thoughts and/or opinions?


If it were me, I'd start out with a CAD program and see what you can do with design before investing in a machine. Rhino is a good program at a good price (especially with the student discount--MadCAM is a good CAM solution too). Contract out the CNC work and see what the end result looks like. If you get good with the CAD/CAM side of things and the stuff you're getting back from someone else's CNC is looking good--then is the time to find or build a CNC machine. They're getting cheaper all the time. Waiting will only save you money, and probably get a nicer machine.

I think that starting with a machine and letting someone else initially do the design work for you is potentially a way to have an expensive machine sitting around gathering dust. The CAD/CAM side of CNC work is where most of the action is. If you find out that it's not your cup of tea after sinking a few hundred bucks into software (in the case of Rhino or some others), it's one thing. If you find that out after a few thou in machine investment it's something altogether different. If you don't get good at CAD, you're probably not going to enjoy or use CNC very much. Just my .02...

Dave
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making the transition from hand building to CNC
Dave nailed it. Use your student status to get a discount on Rhino (you're even allowed to use your student copy commercially) and if you're pretty sure you'll be going into CNC then see how the student pricing is on MadCAM. It might be worth it as a hedged bet.

Other than that, I absolutely suggest spending 3-6 months getting really good with CAD before you get a machine.

Right now one of the forum members here is doing private CAD lessons with me (over Skype), but even with dense 1.5 hr sessions and practice time between them it's going to be two months before he'll be able to do a 3D part the complexity of a neck end to end (idea->CAD->CAM->part). And this is a talented guy. As a student, you'll have a lot more disposable time (well, I did, anyway) so you might compress that, but as a student you also probably can't afford private courses.

Maybe outsource, maybe not, at the end. Given the cost, if you don't have kids, I'd do the CAD thing until you're making things so cool you can't resist anymore and then look at machines :)
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