Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Template making help needed

Ok, I'm going to have to go back and look closer because I'm not seeing how it allows you to copy a heel contour...

..... Forget the fancy jig that wont make a curved end.

Roger I know what you are asking. You are having trouble matching the curve of the end of the neck. Alan said it best. I would trace around the neck with a sharp knife. Then if you want to rout the straight lines, fine if not saw close to the line and use a file to get right up to the scribed line. The do the same with the curved end. Just cut very close to the scribed mark and finish with a file. Forget the fancy jig that wont make a curved end.

Here's a really fast and easy way to do it:

Clamp your neck to the MDF at the centerline and super glue flat wood or MDF pieces of the same thickness that are squared flat on at least one side onto the template, square side butted up tight to the neck in the shape of the neck pocket. Then remove the neck and use this "temporary" template to route onto your MDF template. Super glue should hold it pretty well but tug on it to make sure it's steady. When you're done routing just knock the pieces off with a chisel and there you have it.

Works like a charm for me. I use this method to make templates to route tight fitting pickup rings and pickup cavities.

Edit: It's also a good idea to check the fit with your neck to make sure it's not way too tight or way too loose, although since it's a bolt on, it can be a little loose and be fine.

RogerC108 wrote:

Ok, I'm going to have to go back and look closer because I'm not seeing how it allows you to copy a heel contour...

Hey Roger - if ya have the time, try to read through that thread - it explains how it works - basically the 2 side rails hold the neck in place after you align it to the body - you can then put in the "stop piece" and then the neck is removed, then you can rout out the cavity (where the neck was).

When I finally got to use mine on the Silver Willow, I was amazed how dead-on accurate the pocket came out. Not sure why you would want to spend the time on a template for every different guitar you make, as opposed to using this jig - a couple other people have jumped in with suggestions as well - I wonder if they think this jig is useless?
It DID take some time to get the thing done just right, but I will go up against most builders who don't have one who need to make a template first. My guess is on my next guitar, I'll have the pocket cut out perfectly under 20 minutes. beehive

Thanks, TGW. Version 3 of my template will consist of making a master template out of 1/4" mdf instead of using the 3/4" thickness. It should sand and file a lot easier and allow me to sneak up on the profile more accurately. I'll then use that 1/4" master to make a 3/4" working template.

I hear what you're saying about neck pockets, but my perfectionist nature won't allow me to keep it as it is. Since this one is for someone else (and a good friend of mine to boot), I want to make sure and get it as perfect as I can, and I think I'm still pretty far from that.

Version 3 of my template will consist of making a master template out of 1/4" mdf instead of using the 3/4" thickness.

RogerC108 wrote:

Version 3 of my template will consist of making a master template out of 1/4" mdf instead of using the 3/4" thickness.

You could make you master with the end of the neck pocket squared off and then use Bondo to create the curve. Just fill it in using the neck to make the shape. Once it dries use that to route your working template.

Good luck. This sort of thing drives me nuts. I have a pile of "almost there" templates.

Author:	RogerC108 [ Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Template making help needed
So I'm building this jazzmaster for my friend, and he's purchased a jm neck off another friend. That's good because it will save me time by not having to make a neck, but I'm having a very difficult time making an accurate template for the neck pocket. What I'm doing is marking a center line on a piece of mdf and then lining up the center line of the neck with that center line I'm then tracing the profile of the heel onto the mdf. I set up some straight edges to rout out the straight sides, but the part that's giving me fits is the end of the heel is convex. I can't just set up a straight edge to rout a straight line, so I'm having to just get close with the router and then use files and sandpaper to try to get it right. I've done 2 so far, and they've both ended up terrible. How do you guys do it?

Author:	VirgilGuitar [ Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
If you are planning on making more guitars (after this one) you may want to make yourself one of these bad boys: http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=29117 Mine rocks - took allot of fears and frustrations out of the picture - and I LOVE the word of the year: "Streamline!"

Author:	RogerC108 [ Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
I remember seeing that, but since my guitars don't use a neck angle, it really doesn't do me any good. The issue I'm running into now is just accurately transferring the heel profile onto a template and then onto the guitar.

Author:	VirgilGuitar [ Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
The neck jig isn't just for having neck angles - it serves several purposes including the one you are searching for.

Author:	VirgilGuitar [ Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
Also, a template isn't even required when making one - you can even simplify it if you look at the photos - since you don't need a neck angle(YET) you can simply use the concept as to what it does to cut out very accurate pockets for your builds.

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Author:	RogerC108 [ Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
Ok, I'm going to have to go back and look closer because I'm not seeing how it allows you to copy a heel contour...

Author:	alan stassforth [ Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
Hey Roger, get your straight lines right, mark the mdf from the neck positioned in the right place, pencil the contour, and shape the mdf until it fits the neck. Leave a little slop for finish.

Author:	RogerC108 [ Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
Thanks Alan. That's what I've been doing. I'm just having a helluva time getting the contour right. I guess this is just one of those "practice makes perfect" moments

Author:	Chas Freeborn [ Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
I could outline a sequence for you, but it assumes you have and know how to use a complete complement of rub collars, rabbet bits and an accurate flush trim cutter for your router. -C

Author:	RogerC108 [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
ummm yeah.... I'm assuming that since I don't know what all of those things are, I probably don't have or know how to use them I do have a fairly large collection of router bits, but I'm not sure if I have any rabbet bits, and my flush trim bits are standard, run of the mill bits. I have no idea what rub collars are. edit - I just checked, and I have rabbet bits. Also, I googled "rub collars", and I do indeed have some of those as well

Author:	VirgilGuitar [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
RogerC108 wrote: Ok, I'm going to have to go back and look closer because I'm not seeing how it allows you to copy a heel contour... Hey Roger - if ya have the time, try to read through that thread - it explains how it works - basically the 2 side rails hold the neck in place after you align it to the body - you can then put in the "stop piece" and then the neck is removed, then you can rout out the cavity (where the neck was). When I finally got to use mine on the Silver Willow, I was amazed how dead-on accurate the pocket came out. Not sure why you would want to spend the time on a template for every different guitar you make, as opposed to using this jig - a couple other people have jumped in with suggestions as well - I wonder if they think this jig is useless? It DID take some time to get the thing done just right, but I will go up against most builders who don't have one who need to make a template first. My guess is on my next guitar, I'll have the pocket cut out perfectly under 20 minutes.

Author:	Chameleon [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
Here's a really fast and easy way to do it: Clamp your neck to the MDF at the centerline and super glue flat wood or MDF pieces of the same thickness that are squared flat on at least one side onto the template, square side butted up tight to the neck in the shape of the neck pocket. Then remove the neck and use this "temporary" template to route onto your MDF template. Super glue should hold it pretty well but tug on it to make sure it's steady. When you're done routing just knock the pieces off with a chisel and there you have it. Works like a charm for me. I use this method to make templates to route tight fitting pickup rings and pickup cavities. Edit: It's also a good idea to check the fit with your neck to make sure it's not way too tight or way too loose, although since it's a bolt on, it can be a little loose and be fine.

Author:	Ken McKay [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
Roger I know what you are asking. You are having trouble matching the curve of the end of the neck. Alan said it best. I would trace around the neck with a sharp knife. Then if you want to rout the straight lines, fine if not saw close to the line and use a file to get right up to the scribed line. The do the same with the curved end. Just cut very close to the scribed mark and finish with a file. Forget the fancy jig that wont make a curved end.

Author:	StevenWheeler [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
Roger, Try this. Place a 3" strip of mdf on either side of the neck. Make a third piece that fits between them. Mark the curve on the third piece and file/sand it until it fits. Don't worry about the radius on the corners as your router bit will cut those. Glue the three pieces together and your good to go. Steve

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Author:	VirgilGuitar [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
Ken McKay wrote: ..... Forget the fancy jig that wont make a curved end. Apparently you don't own a "fancy jig", because if you did, you would KNOW that is in fact it DOES make a curved end.

Author:	RogerC108 [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
VirgilGuitar wrote: Hey Roger - if ya have the time, try to read through that thread - it explains how it works - basically the 2 side rails hold the neck in place after you align it to the body - you can then put in the "stop piece" and then the neck is removed, then you can rout out the cavity (where the neck was). Hey Virgil, I don't think you're quite understanding what my problem is at this point. I can't just put a stop piece in because that would create a straight line at the end of the heel. This heel is convex. It's this contour that's giving me all the trouble. I'm not having any problems getting the straight sides (i'm using scrap mdf for my guides). If I could create the curve on the stop piece, then I could create it in my template. It's the accurate recreation of the curve that I'm struggling with

Author:	RogerC108 [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
Ken McKay wrote: Roger I know what you are asking. You are having trouble matching the curve of the end of the neck. Alan said it best. I would trace around the neck with a sharp knife. Then if you want to rout the straight lines, fine if not saw close to the line and use a file to get right up to the scribed line. The do the same with the curved end. Just cut very close to the scribed mark and finish with a file. Forget the fancy jig that wont make a curved end. Yes, Ken. Thank you

Author:	RogerC108 [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
Chameleon wrote: Here's a really fast and easy way to do it: Clamp your neck to the MDF at the centerline and super glue flat wood or MDF pieces of the same thickness that are squared flat on at least one side onto the template, square side butted up tight to the neck in the shape of the neck pocket. Then remove the neck and use this "temporary" template to route onto your MDF template. Super glue should hold it pretty well but tug on it to make sure it's steady. When you're done routing just knock the pieces off with a chisel and there you have it. Works like a charm for me. I use this method to make templates to route tight fitting pickup rings and pickup cavities. Edit: It's also a good idea to check the fit with your neck to make sure it's not way too tight or way too loose, although since it's a bolt on, it can be a little loose and be fine. Again, I understand how to make a template. It's the recreation of the convex end of the heel that I'm having problems with.

Author:	theguitarwhisperer [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
VirgilGuitar wrote: RogerC108 wrote: Ok, I'm going to have to go back and look closer because I'm not seeing how it allows you to copy a heel contour... Hey Roger - if ya have the time, try to read through that thread - it explains how it works - basically the 2 side rails hold the neck in place after you align it to the body - you can then put in the "stop piece" and then the neck is removed, then you can rout out the cavity (where the neck was). When I finally got to use mine on the Silver Willow, I was amazed how dead-on accurate the pocket came out. Not sure why you would want to spend the time on a template for every different guitar you make, as opposed to using this jig - a couple other people have jumped in with suggestions as well - I wonder if they think this jig is useless? It DID take some time to get the thing done just right, but I will go up against most builders who don't have one who need to make a template first. My guess is on my next guitar, I'll have the pocket cut out perfectly under 20 minutes. Virgil, Your heel is square and terminates in the the pickup cavity. Roger's neck style is a little different. The end of the heel is convex, and so your jig won't work to actually copy the curve, which is why he's making a template. A template could probably be adapted to work with your jig though, I'm sure, if you ever wanted to make a Fender style guitar. If it already does a curved heel, post a picture and put this to rest, and maybe Roger might want to make your jig. Roger, I've looked at a LOT of Fenders. The older ones had pockets that followed the curve,but the newer ones have neck pockets that have the corners relieved and don't follow the shape of the neck perfectly. Really though, the older ones weren't perfect either. The fact of the matter is that the neck pocket fit really has no effect on tone. I've heard some pretty great sounding guitars with really sloppy neck joints, despite what Ed Roman rants about on his web page (may he rest in peace.) What's important is that the sides of the pocket are able to hold the neck alignment straight, and if the end of the heel isn't perfect, the pick guard will wrap around it anyway. However, if you keep practicing, you will eventually be able to form a template accurately, I'm sure, if you haven't already.

Author:	RogerC108 [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
Thanks, TGW. Version 3 of my template will consist of making a master template out of 1/4" mdf instead of using the 3/4" thickness. It should sand and file a lot easier and allow me to sneak up on the profile more accurately. I'll then use that 1/4" master to make a 3/4" working template. I hear what you're saying about neck pockets, but my perfectionist nature won't allow me to keep it as it is. Since this one is for someone else (and a good friend of mine to boot), I want to make sure and get it as perfect as I can, and I think I'm still pretty far from that.

Author:	VirgilGuitar [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
Thanks GW - we always appreciate your expertise in these things! Now everyone GET BACK TO WORK! hehehe

Author:	Mike Baker [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
RogerC108 wrote: Thanks, TGW. Version 3 of my template will consist of making a master template out of 1/4" mdf instead of using the 3/4" thickness. It should sand and file a lot easier and allow me to sneak up on the profile more accurately. I'll then use that 1/4" master to make a 3/4" working template. This is the ticket to success, IMHO. When I built my P bass, I laid the neck onto the template material, traced the outline, and carved the curved heel by hand. I used pieces of straight board like has been described here to get the sides straight with a router. I made sure i marked my center line before doing any cutting, though. You are correct in that you'll just have to "do it till you get it right". At least in my experience. The 1/4" template material should make that a lot easier. Keep at it. You'll get it.

Author:	John Killin [ Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Template making help needed
RogerC108 wrote: Version 3 of my template will consist of making a master template out of 1/4" mdf instead of using the 3/4" thickness. You could make your master with the end of the neck pocket squared off and then use Bondo to create the curve. Just fill it in using the neck to make the shape. Once it dries use that to route your working template. Good luck. This sort of thing drives me nuts. I have a pile of "almost there" templates.