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radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
http://mowrystrings.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=35101		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  RogerC108 [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:03 am ]
Post subject:  radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
So I've been working on a fretboard radius jig like Virgil and so many other people around here have made. Version 1.0 was the variety with the radius built into the router sled. I got the radiused router sled complete, but decided to switch it up for one where the radius blocks were part of the platform instead. So I built v2.0 and immediately had to break it down to tweak because my tolerances weren't good enough (not saying that I'm intolerant at all, but I digress...). So now I'm on v2.1...

Image

Image

Image

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Here are some of my details--

I've got some registration lines marked so that I can ensure that each side of the radius block is the same height, and that each radius block is set appropriately.

Each radius block has notches so that they can be adjusted independently. If I find that one side cuts slightly off, I can adjust it accordingly.

I've got holes drilled into the bed so that the fretboard can be held in place with vacuum. This works much better than I'd hoped.

I've gotten to try it on one test piece so far, and I can't say that I was very happy with the result. I'm sure it's due to my technique though. I need to work on my process and setup, and then I think it will do it's job very well. I'll test using different bits and smaller bites to see if I can get a finer end result as well.
Author:  RogerC108 [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
I remember reading that thread, Filippo. I've done 3 boards by hand, and each took me considerably longer than 6 minutes. I also had the problem of uneven sanding. On the most recent, I even started with 80 grit, but I was at it for a good 30 -45 minutes before my board was ready for the final grit, and I was making sure to have good, clean paper to use. Since I don't have another build planned for a while, I'm going to keep experimenting and see if I can get this dialed in. You're right, it is an elementary process, but it doesn't have to be laughing6-hehe
Author:  VirgilGuitar [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
"Repair Vice" Filippo?

I'm gonna have to build me one!

wow7-eyes
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
I rough mine in on the belt sander and finish up with the 18 inch aluminum radius beam, takes about 5 minutes. I've no problem with unevenness, after a little practice it has become second nature.
Author:  Marty M. [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
Hi, I thought I'd add a few cents to the discussion. I admire your engineering of this design, but I think the jig you made is really more complex than it needs to be. This is just my opinion based on what I came up with years ago and which I think still holds up for a single radius fretboard.

Look at my own radius jig design that Todd Stock posted as a radius jig tutorial. If you make the parts accurately, it cuts accurately. It's an inexpensive and no frills device which doesn't take that long to make. I made mine out of 3/4" plywood.

viewtopic.php?f=10117&t=21565

This past summer I did my first one piece necks out of maple. I had always done two piece necks up to this point, but decided to try the Leo Fender/skunk stripe method for something different. I used my Stew Mac radius block to final sand the arch after taking if off the cnc machine. My original router radius jig was designed and built in the 1980's for fretboards only. There is no reason why it couldn't be elevated another 3/4" to do a one piece neck. I'll have to try and find the time to do that myself I guess. I've been CNCing my necks for a couple years and buying stewmac fretboards for most of my work, so the need hasn't really come up for me.

I understand the pros and cons of jig making, but my design was built before sanding radius blocks and the internet became available. In fact, I used the scraps of plywood from the jig to make a glued up sanding block. I think it is time well spent to make the jig and from what I've read, many people agree. If you want to do it other ways, that's cool too.
Author:  WudWerkr [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
My Jig is the simplest form it can possibly be , I pick up the phone and say , send me one of them "pre-radiused " Pre-slotted " fret boards . I have never had a messed up one yet laughing6-hehe

Seriously I do like the idea of making my own , but at my current rate of ability I am afriad that i couldnt justify the cost between the jig and time verses the cost of pre-made .
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
I have had the idea to build a radius jig for quite a while but never get around to it, so like Filippo I sand by hand and the more I do it seems that the jig will never get built. I saw the fret slots by hand and quite enjoy that task also. I do enough other things with noisy machines that when I can work with hand tools it is a nice change. The sound of sandpaper or a sharp blade slicing through wood is almost like therapy.
Author:  RogerC108 [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
Thanks for chiming in everyone. I appreciate all the input from people with so much experience.

Marty, this isn't actually my design. I saw Virgil make one, and he got it from JimO here on the forum. I wanted to try one as well because it seemed to offer the most possibilities.

Due to lack of funds, the guitar build will be on hold for a while until I can purchase some materials, so I want to toy around with this and see how well I can get it dialed in. Call it stubbornness, call it wishful thinking, etc. I just want to see it through to the end and see how good I can get it working. All it's going to cost me are some practice scraps [:Y:]
Author:  RogerC108 [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
That's what I used on the first 3 boards I radiused, Filippo. Still no bueno idunno
Author:  James Ringelspaugh [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
I built one of those big complex ones once so that I could do complex radii quickly. It might have saved me a few minutes if I needed to radius about 50 fretboards at a time with the same radii. Throwing out that behemoth was one of the best decisions I ever made.

Now I use Bob Bendetto's method. I run my boards through a drum sander with a veneer under one side than the other to get it close, then use a big block and sandpaper to finish it. Usually takes just a few minutes.
Author:  johnparchem [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
lex_luthier wrote:
I built one of those big complex ones once so that I could do complex radii quickly. It might have saved me a few minutes if I needed to radius about 50 fretboards at a time with the same radii. Throwing out that behemoth was one of the best decisions I ever made.

Now I use Bob Bendetto's method. I run my boards through a drum sander with a veneer under one side than the other to get it close, then use a big block and sandpaper to finish it. Usually takes just a few minutes.


Thank you for this idea! I already do it halfway on my classical fretboards.
Author:  VirgilGuitar [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
OK, I feel the need to chime in here -I took WAY longer to sand the radii on 2 fretboards, and the second one, I used an 8" wood radius block that the guitarwhisperer had noted was uneven all over the place - this was after sanding it for about an hour. I doubt anyone can sand down a cocobolo board in 6 minutes - rosewood maybe, ebony - not too sure. So I built one modeled after JimO's and I also pimped mine out with a vacuum press.

If you are using double-sided tape, I am imagining that you are removing that 3 times as fast as me, because it usually takes me 2 minutes to take off that stuff completely. So your process should be down to 4 minutes now wow7-eyes

I find it incredibly had to believe that anyone, besides SuperMan, Hulk or Al Gore(The inventor of the internet) could do such a feat in 6 minutes unless making a fretboard out of pine or balsa wood - would love to see a video of this being done!

After making my jig, it takes about 6 minutes to get the radius perfect - I use a 3/4" router bit and it takes about 10 passes back and forth to get the "roughed" radius, then additional few minutes to fine tune things with the SM aluminum radius beam.
Author:  VirgilGuitar [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
lex_luthier wrote:
I built one of those big complex ones once so that I could do complex radii quickly. It might have saved me a few minutes if I needed to radius about 50 fretboards at a time with the same radii. Throwing out that behemoth was one of the best decisions I ever made.

Now I use Bob Bendetto's method. I run my boards through a drum sander with a veneer under one side than the other to get it close, then use a big block and sandpaper to finish it. Usually takes just a few minutes.



That sounds interesting - I might have to give that a try some day - one thing for sure though is keeping the fretboard straight may be an issue with that or accidently putting it in slightly crooked

wow7-eyes wow7-eyes
Author:  VirgilGuitar [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or
Filippo Morelli wrote:
VirgilGuitar wrote:
"Repair Vice" Filippo?

I'm gonna have to build me one!

wow7-eyes

you'll need a portable foundry. ;-)

Filippo


laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe Searching the net brother, searching the net!
Author:  nyazzip [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
Quote:
I find it incredibly had to believe that anyone, besides SuperMan, Hulk or Al Gore(The inventor of the internet) could do such a feat in 6 minutes unless making a fretboard out of pine or balsa wood - would love to see a video of this being done!


agreed. obviously shallower radii go a bit faster than round ones, but for me it easily takes 45 minutes of pure sanding(all other setup/fiddling aside)with ebony on a 9.5" radius, starting with 60 grit and finishing at 600 or 800
Author:  VirgilGuitar [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
Filippo Morelli wrote:
..... Trying to think how I can help you all since I'm not sure why it's taking you this long.
Filippo


ARRRRRG!
I see what I've been doing wrong! My radius beam was upside-down! [headinwall]

laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
nyazzip wrote:
Quote:
I find it incredibly had to believe that anyone, besides SuperMan, Hulk or Al Gore(The inventor of the internet) could do such a feat in 6 minutes unless making a fretboard out of pine or balsa wood - would love to see a video of this being done!


agreed. obviously shallower radii go a bit faster than round ones, but for me it easily takes 45 minutes of pure sanding(all other setup/fiddling aside)with ebony on a 9.5" radius, starting with 60 grit and finishing at 600 or 800


Roughing it in on the belt sander speeds the process up considerably when radiusing by hand.

I have a belt sander with a 30 inch sanding platen, which also allows me to do 6 string or wider bass fretboards.

The 18 inch aluminum radius beam covers most of the fretboard and allows you to sand the entire fretboard at once. A 6 or 8 inch block would be more difficult to control over the length of the board.

I use 100 grit paper for this task.

Afterwards, I verify accuracy with a long straightedge.

Certainly, going from a flat fretboard to a 10 radius would take quite a bit of time sanding with the beam alone.

A radius jig does the same thing as roughing it in on the belt sander but should require less sanding with the radius beam to finalize, so in theory it should be faster with the radius jig. I'm not convinced it's THAT much faster, nor is the final product necessarily more accurate, depending on the skill of the builder.

There's greater risk of chipout and blowout with a router vs sanding.

Even if it takes 5 or ten more minutes by hand (I don't think it does but let's say it does), I wouldn't want to risk blowing out a fine rare exotic fretboard on a customer build.

So, since accuracy is not an issue for me as my fretboard radii are accurate and true, and for me speed is not issue since I'm not running a production shop, I don't see the need to build a jig for myself, and there's no risk to me of blowing out or chipping a customer's hand selected fretboard during the radius process. To me that's worth an extra 5 or ten minutes.
Author:  nyazzip [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
i guess i should try the belt sander. i have one and never use it. i could picture easily ruining a FB blank with it
...
:oops:
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
nyazzip wrote:
i guess i should try the belt sander. i have one and never use it. i could picture easily ruining a FB blank with it
...
:oops:


There is a learning curve.

However, after you get the hang of it, you can actually do compound radii as well. I simply check the nut and the 22nd fret with my radius gauges and verify with my straightedge.

I don't press the fretboard against the belt.

You must have superior hand/eye coordination for this to work.
Author:  Sandywood [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
I've done one (12") with a jig I built.
Other 12" hand sanded with the aluminum block from Stu.

And one (12") with this-Image

I stop building to build my shop so haven't
had a chance to do a compound with it.
It took no time to do the 12"...took longer to set it
and that was just a few minutes.
Still had to fine sand but it sure did a nice job.
Author:  RogerC108 [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
Filippo Morelli wrote:
We're talking removal of 0.020" or so of wood along the outer edge, to near zero at the center.

Filippo


I think one of my problems has been (both with hand sanding and with my trial run on the jig) trying to take off too much material. But again, I'm just not that excited about doing this process completely by hand. You may be Superman, but I'll assume the Batman persona and pull the bat radius jig out of my utility belt laughing6-hehe
Author:  RogerC108 [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
VirgilGuitar wrote:
ARRRRRG!
I see what I've been doing wrong! My radius beam was upside-down! [headinwall]

laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe


[clap] laughing6-hehe [clap] Well played, sir
Author:  RogerC108 [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
Sandywood wrote:
And one (12") with this-Image



Now THAT'S what I'm talking about :D
Author:  Kim [ Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
I use a router jig (Rick Micheletti plan) and think they are worth making simply because I find them efficient and keep the dust to a minimum in the process. Hand sanding with a caul is not a bother either but with the FB already thickness'd and slotted, setting up to use the jig takes as long as required to mark centre, stick two small bits of 2 x side tape to the underside and to lower the bowl/tray cutting bit in the router to the surface of the FB. Once done, its difficult to see how any other method could match repeatable accuracy for a single cut radius.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  VirgilGuitar [ Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: radius jigs, or "the physical embodiment of my frustration"
Thanks Filippo for mentioning sandpaper as well - When I started all of this stuff in the Summer of 2010, I went for budget paper at Harbor Freight, then got frustrated and started using 3M from Lowe's - I FINALLY used the Norton 3x a few months ago and it rocks - seems to cut quicker and last longer (Hence the 3X!)
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